Questions from public about long snapping Started by Mark Fo

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Questions from public about long snapping Started by Mark Ford, Sep 18 2014 08:57 AM
Started by Mark L. Ford, Sep 18 2014 08:57 AM

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#1 Mark L. Ford
Administrators
Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:57 AM
This was passed on to me by a PFRA member who is a professor and was asked these by someone else:

"1- When was the long snap introduced? (And how / why?)
2- When did the first shot gun snap take place? (And how / why?) What happened next?
Who were the first long snappers?
3- When did backup centers begin taking over the snapping duties?
4-When did it become specialized -- who was the sole first long snapper? the first long snapper to secure a scholarship?"

Offhand, I imagine that long-snapping was necessary, millions of fourth downs ago, since the punter or kicker needed that extra few seconds to get kick the goal or boot the ball downfield. As far as the shotgun offense, my understanding had been that it originated with Red Hickey's 49ers teams in the early 1960s, but I won't be surprised if it was earlier than that. The specialist would be a bit more recent.

#2 rhickok1109
PFRA Member
Posted 18 September 2014 - 04:31 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 18 Sept 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:
This was passed on to me by a PFRA member who is a professor and was asked these by someone else:
"1- When was the long snap introduced? (And how / why?)
2- When did the first shot gun snap take place? (And how / why?) What happened next?
Who were the first long snappers?
3- When did backup centers begin taking over the snapping duties?
4-When did it become specialized -- who was the sole first long snapper? the first long snapper to secure a scholarship?"

Offhand, I imagine that long-snapping was necessary, millions of fourth downs ago, since the punter or kicker needed that extra few seconds to get kick the goal or boot the ball downfield. As far as the shotgun offense, my understanding had been that it originated with Red Hickey's 49ers teams in the early 1960s, but I won't be surprised if it was earlier than that. The specialist would be a bit more recent.
Actually, in the very old days, the quarterback usually took the snap and tossed the ball back to the fullback for a punt or dropkick. I don't think long snapping arrived until the birth of the single wing in 1907 (at Carlisle under Pop Warner).

While Red Hickey is credited with inventing the shotgun, the Packers used a very similar formation for the last seven games of the 1952 season. It was called the "R formation" after Coach Gene Ronzani and quarterback-turned-tailback Tobin Rote. They won four games in a row using the R formation but then lost their last three. Hickey was an assistant coach with the Rams when they beat the Packers in the next-to-the-last game of the season, so that may have given him the idea. Or maybe not

The Packers' center in 1952 was Jay Rhodemyre, so he might be considered the first modern long snapper, but not in the way the term is usually used. (However, it should be noted that the Steelers were still using the single wing in 1951, so there was really no period when the NFL lacked a long snapper in that sense until 1953-1960.)

I have often wondered when the present position of long snapper (who snaps the ball only on punts and field goals) originated. I doubt very much that teams could have afforded to keep a long snapper on the roster until 1974, when the roster limit was temporarily increased to 47 and I strongly suspect that there wasn't a long snapper until sometime after 1978, when the roster limit was set at 45. Unfortunately, that doesn't narrow it down very much.

#3 JohnMaxymuk
PFRA Member
Posted 18 September 2014 - 05:04 PM
According to news accounts, Jimmy Phelan had Jimmy Celeri quarterbacking out of short punt formation, similar to what later became the shotgun, with the 1951 NY Yanks.

#4 oldecapecod 11
PFRA Member
Posted 18 September 2014 - 06:38 PM
There's another recent thread with some pertinent facts concerning this thread. Some of the contributions are by luckyshow. Someone who is more proficient searching the early archives could probably find it quickly.

#5 Rupert Patrick
PFRA Member
Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:01 PM
If you watch the 1945 Championship game film, on the play where Baugh threw from the end zone and the ball hit the goalposts for the Safety, he was operating out of a shotgun type formation, and he also did the play before.

In the 1945 Thanksgiving game in Detroit vs the Rams, the Lions were using a shotgun type formation at times.

Tommy Thompson was using a shotgun on several occasions in the 1947 NFL Championship game.

I've seen it other times in the 40's but no team used it on a regular or semi-regular basis.

#6 NWebster
Forum Visitors
Posted 18 September 2014 - 08:07 PM
This is some of the challenge of football history. First shotgun snap, first 3-4 defense, etc, etc. Did they do it on purpose, was it a mistake, was it a trick play? To me the "originator" is the first person to put it in as a regular part of their strategy. But we'll never know who went up to a chalk board and drew a shotgun, or 3-4, or the like. I've seen the film of Baugh in the "shotgun" looks like a legit intentional strategy to me. Phil Bengstons 3-4 with the 49ers sure looks like an intentional strategic choice. But who knows, that the fun of this.

#7 Bryan
Forum Visitors
Posted 19 September 2014 - 07:37 AM
JohnMaxymuk, on 18 Sept 2014 - 5:04 PM, said:
According to news accounts, Jimmy Phelan had Jimmy Celeri quarterbacking out of short punt formation, similar to what later became the shotgun, with the 1951 NY Yanks.

I've seen George Taliaferro quarterback out of the same formation with Phelan's 1952 Dallas Texans team.

The first guy I remember as being a special teams long snap specialist was Trey Junkin...wikipedia has a blurb on Todd Thomas, who would have preceded Junkin by a few years. The blurb says that "Todd Thomas was selected in the fifth round (124th overall) of the 1981 NFL Draft, for his long snapping abilities, by the Kansas City Chiefs. At the time draft records listed him as a tackle, but he served as the long snapper for the Chiefs during the 1981 season". I don't remember Thomas at all...he got hurt after the 1981 season and then resurfaced in the USFL. But it appears that wikipedia's story is legit and that Thomas was purely a long snapper for the 1981 Chiefs. I don't anecdotally know of any pure long snapper who would have been prior to 1981.

#8 luckyshow
Forum Visitors
Posted 19 September 2014 - 11:41 AM
>Not sure what I said in the past nor how to find it. Offhand I have these two bits of "fact":
• 1st direct snap to kicker thought up by Walter Camp, Yale 1895. Before this the QB took the snap and tossed it back to the punter.
• 1st spiral snap from center: Muskegon High School, 1906.
I have also found the following for Germany Schulz, University of Michigan:

<A beast of a man, Schulz dominated the line of scrimmage between 1904 and 1908. Named to 1951 Associated Press all-time All-American team, Schulz is credited with two innovations: the spiral snap and playing defense behind the line, effectively becoming the first linebacker. Michigan had a 32-4-1 record in his four seasons>

Schulz came from Muskegon. I have seen he "invented" the linebacker in his Michigan frosh year, 1904. It was not rare for players to coach a high school team. They did tend to play the same days, so I am just guessing that he tried the spiral with the HS team first...

#9 luckyshow
Forum Visitors
Posted 19 September 2014 - 12:06 PM
Pop Warner at Carlisle used the following fake punt play in 1907:

http://tombenjey.fil...jpg?w=450&h=668

#10 luckyshow
Forum Visitors
Posted 19 September 2014 - 12:18 PM
One more possibility is seen in this article. I include it because I am unsure what he means in this article. By he, I mean J.W. Heisman himself. See "The Direct Snap-Up in 1893" on the first page of his 1908 article here: I presume he is meaning the typical snap to the QB right behind him.

http://www.archives....man_article.pdf

#11 rhickok1109
PFRA Member
Posted 19 September 2014 - 02:44 PM
JohnMaxymuk, on 18 Sept 2014 - 5:04 PM, said:
According to news accounts, Jimmy Phelan had Jimmy Celeri quarterbacking out of short punt formation, similar to what later became the shotgun, with the 1951 NY Yanks.

I'm pretty sure it's Bob Celeri. Phelan did the same thing in 1952, when the Yanks had become the Dallas Texans. I was at their game in Green Bay that year.

#12 coach tj troup
PFRA Member
Posted 19 September 2014 - 02:52 PM
....11-15-53 in the coliseum jumbo joe and his winless cards rally to tie rams as charlie trippi in a "spread formation" not only is effective running, he attempts 8 passes on the final drive to tie the rams.

#13 Greg Gubi
Forum Visitors
Posted 19 September 2014 - 05:16 PM
Here's an illustration of the long snap for placekick, published in The New York World, Nov. 22, 1896.

According to the article linked here, Walter Camp got the idea from an unnamed Western schoolboy.
http://lostcentury.c...-placekick.html

Illustration is from "Classic Football Art."
Attached Thumbnails

#14 JohnMaxymuk
PFRA Member
Posted 19 September 2014 - 06:00 PM
rhickok1109, on 19 Sept 2014 - 2:44 PM, said:
I'm pretty sure it's Bob Celeri. Phelan did the same thing in 1952, when the Yanks had become the Dallas Texans. I was at their game in Green Bay that year.

Oops, thanks for catching that, Ralph. When I was trying to remember Celeri's name I kept thinking of Jimmy Cefalo.

#15 rhickok1109
PFRA Member
Posted 19 September 2014 - 09:02 PM
JohnMaxymuk, on 19 Sept 2014 - 6:00 PM, said:
Oops, thanks for catching that, Ralph. When I was trying to remember Celeri's name I kept thinking of Jimmy Cefalo.

No big deal. I figured you just repeated the Jimmy from Phelan's name. I know from experience that t's too easy to do that sort of thing