Tony Dungy VS Jimmy Johnson HOF

[Jeremy Crowhurst]

As a Cowboys fan, I would like to throw my 2 cents that how I perceived things back in 1989-1990

- As Buddy Ryan told Jimmy Johnson when he came to the Cowboys: "There are no East Carolinas in the NFL". With the Miami Hurricanes, they had many mediocre rivals (back then they still were an Independent team) and I believe that Johnson wasn't prepared.

- I never understood why they drafted Steve Walsh having already drafted Troy Aikman and the Herschel Walker trade didn't looked so lopsided back then. Of the veteran players the Cowboys got, runnning back Darrin Nelson refused to report to Dallas and was dealt to San Diego. Alex Stewart never played for Dallas. And I was shocked when Everson Walls went to the Giants in 1990 where he won a Super Bowl that season. And I agree that many key players (Mark Tuinei, Nate Newton, Bill Bates, Jim Jeffcoat, Ken Norton, even Michael Irvin and Chad Hennings, before he completed his military service) were added when Tom Landry was the coach.

-Other player I was shocked when he was let go was RB Paul Palmer, and after he was the star of the Cowboys lone win in 1989 at Washington. But time got it right, as he didn't played in the NFL after that season (he was a star in NFL Europe with the Barcelona Dragons, though).

Walsh was a known commodity to Johnson, who didn't see eye to eye with Aikman the first year or two. Like any rookie, there was a question of how good he was, and Johnson was comfortable with Walsh in the event things went sour.

Walls' release came back to bite Johnson initially. As a Giant, I think Walls had a key pick against Johnson's Cowboys. But ultimately, Walls' release was a Belichick type move, questioned at the time, but youth movement oriented. It wasn't long before Walls was out of the league. Long term, the decision was a good one.

Didn't Everson Walls make the game-saving pick on Joe Montana in the NFC Championship game that sent the Giants to the Super Bowl, and cost the 49'ers a possible three-peat?

[7DnBrnc53]

I never understood why they drafted Steve Walsh having already drafted Troy Aikman and the Herschel Walker trade didn't looked so lopsided back then. Of the veteran players the Cowboys got, runnning back Darrin Nelson refused to report to Dallas and was dealt to San Diego. Alex Stewart never played for Dallas. And I was shocked when Everson Walls went to the Giants in 1990 where he won a Super Bowl that season. And I agree that many key players (Mark Tuinei, Nate Newton, Bill Bates, Jim Jeffcoat, Ken Norton, even Michael Irvin and Chad Hennings, before he completed his military service) were added when Tom Landry was the coach.

-I was surprised when they got Jay Novacek from the Cardinals in 1990, as he barely started in his first five seasons. But I saw playing at Wyoming, and was special.

The Walsh pick cost them a chance at getting one of Jimmy's former players at Miami, Cortez Kennedy, in the first round of the 1990 draft (although I wonder if they would have made the trade that Atlanta ended up making with Indy).

As for Novacek, he was let go in Phoenix because new Cardinal coach Joe Bugel only wanted TE's who could block. They also let TE Robert Awalt go as well. I think he also ended up in Dallas.

[Bryan]

2) So Johnson had a first ballot Hall of Fame QB waiting to be plucked? If you're wearing hindsight goggles, yes he did. But you can't apply what you know now to what people *thought* they knew then. Go back and read the pre-draft write-ups on can't-miss prospects JaMarcus Russell and Tony Mandarich if you think it's as easy as taking the number one guy on pundits' draft boards. Johnson wins again.

IIRC, at the time Troy Aikman was the third-highest rated QB prospect in the 'modern era' of NFL scouting, behind John Elway and Terry Bradshaw. He was clearly going to be the #1 overall pick. Giving Johnson 'credit' for drafting Troy Aikman in 1989 is like giving Scott Pioli credit for earning the #1 overall pick for the Chiefs. At least when the Steelers drafted Bradshaw, they had to win a coin flip.

[Bryan]

In fairness to Johnson that 1991 draft was kind of a turd. Not much top end talent. Toddy Lyght was a top 5 pick that year. Yeah as far as #1 picks go Russell Maryland is pretty mundane but given who there was to choose from he was one of the 5-10 most successful players in that class. Ironically some of the best players in that 1991 draft were 2nd rounders like Favre, Watters, etc. Of the first round guys taken Maryland was one of the very few that panned out.

True...not a lot to choose from in 1991. I'm looking at Dallas' drafts from 1989-1993, and its interesting just how many starting-quality players they ended up drafting and, really, how many draft picks they had to utilize. Emmitt Smith was Johnson's best choice, a very productive RB at UF but people questioned his size and speed, and Johnson got him at #17 overall. But guys like Stepnoski (3rd), Erik Williams (3rd), Lett (7th), and Jimmie Jones (3rd) were kind of the nucleus of the team.

Before they signed Deion Sanders after Johnson left, the only big name guy they had on defense was Charles Haley. Johnson drafted a ton of young guys who could play right away...Tony Tolbert, Dixon Edwards, Darren Woodson, Robert Jones, Darrin Smith, Brock Marion. I remember Dallas being very strong in the offensive and defensive lines, but aside from Russell Maryland, none of the guys were really all that highly drafted. I give Jimmy Johnson a lot of credit for finding the type of player/talent he wanted and then assembling the talent into a mini-dynasty

[Veeshik_ya]

2) So Johnson had a first ballot Hall of Fame QB waiting to be plucked? If you're wearing hindsight goggles, yes he did. But you can't apply what you know now to what people *thought* they knew then. Go back and read the pre-draft write-ups on can't-miss prospects JaMarcus Russell and Tony Mandarich if you think it's as easy as taking the number one guy on pundits' draft boards. Johnson wins again.

IIRC, at the time Troy Aikman was the third-highest rated QB prospect in the 'modern era' of NFL scouting, behind John Elway and Terry Bradshaw. He was clearly going to be the #1 overall pick. Giving Johnson 'credit' for drafting Troy Aikman in 1989 is like giving Scott Pioli credit for earning the #1 overall pick for the Chiefs. At least when the Steelers drafted Bradshaw, they had to win a coin flip.

Can't say I agree. Not every team takes the #1 on the boards. The evidence is out there, not going to list it here. Teams make a judgment on who will pan out and who won't. And, perhaps most important, you still have to develop that #1 pick into a hall of famer. Goes without saying that most #1 picks never get there, or even approach it. The "blue chip # 1" is just a forecast, and we all know how accurate forecasts are, particularly economists with MBAs.

[Bryan]

Can't say I agree. Not every team takes the #1 on the boards. The evidence is out there, not going to list it here. Teams make a judgment on who will pan out and who won't. And, perhaps most important, you still have to develop that #1 pick into a hall of famer. Goes without saying that most #1 picks never get there, or even approach it. The "blue chip # 1" is just a forecast, and we all know how accurate most forecasts are, particularly economists with MBAs.

It would have been ridiculous if the Cowboys had passed on Aikman in 1989. The Colts selected Elway even knowing he didn't want to play for them. As things turned out, it was ridiculous for the Cowboys to select Steve Walsh after already having Aikman. I give credit to the Cowboys for bringing in Norv Turner and developing Aikman, but I don't really give them credit for selecting Aikman considering he was, at the time, regarded as one of the 3 best QB prospects in NFL history. I don't think there is any comparison between Troy Aikman and JaMarcus Russell. Aikman was already regarded as the consensus top pick in 1989 after the 1987 season...Russell was a surprise pick who 'impressed in workouts'. Not really the same thing.

[Veeshik_ya]

It would have been ridiculous if the Cowboys had passed on Aikman in 1989.

Viewed through the lens of hindsight, yes it would have.

[conace21]

[/quote]
Didn't Everson Walls make the game-saving pick on Joe Montana in the NFC Championship game that sent the Giants to the Super Bowl, and cost the 49'ers a possible three-peat?[/quote]
No...Montana was knocked out out of the game while SF was leading, and didn't throw an interception all day. It was a Roger Craig fumble that cost the 49ers dearly. Walls had nothing to do with that.

Walls did perhaps save the Super Bowl for NY. On Buffalo's final drive, they faced third and 1 from their own 19. Thurman Thomas took a handoff and broke through the line. Walls came up and made a great tackle. It was a 22 yard gain, but without Walls making the tackle, it would have been a lot worse. Maybe not a touchdown, but easily another 15 or 20 yards. They could have linked, dunked, and scrambled from there to a much closer FG attempt for Scott Norwood.

Regarding Aikman, I read a recent Tom Landry autobiography that stated how much he was looking forward to working with Aikman and turning the Cowboys around...before the JJs came into town. Aikman was the clear #1 pick and it would have been shocking if Dallas hadn't picked him...but Jerry Jones had the final call on draft picks. Jerry did supposedly threaten Leigh Steinberg that he would draft Mandarich if Steinberg didn't come down on his contract demands.

[Hail Casares]

In fairness to Johnson that 1991 draft was kind of a turd. Not much top end talent. Toddy Lyght was a top 5 pick that year. Yeah as far as #1 picks go Russell Maryland is pretty mundane but given who there was to choose from he was one of the 5-10 most successful players in that class. Ironically some of the best players in that 1991 draft were 2nd rounders like Favre, Watters, etc. Of the first round guys taken Maryland was one of the very few that panned out.

True...not a lot to choose from in 1991. I'm looking at Dallas' drafts from 1989-1993, and its interesting just how many starting-quality players they ended up drafting and, really, how many draft picks they had to utilize. Emmitt Smith was Johnson's best choice, a very productive RB at UF but people questioned his size and speed, and Johnson got him at #17 overall. But guys like Stepnoski (3rd), Erik Williams (3rd), Lett (7th), and Jimmie Jones (3rd) were kind of the nucleus of the team.

Before they signed Deion Sanders after Johnson left, the only big name guy they had on defense was Charles Haley. Johnson drafted a ton of young guys who could play right away...Tony Tolbert, Dixon Edwards, Darren Woodson, Robert Jones, Darrin Smith, Brock Marion. I remember Dallas being very strong in the offensive and defensive lines, but aside from Russell Maryland, none of the guys were really all that highly drafted. I give Jimmy Johnson a lot of credit for finding the type of player/talent he wanted and then assembling the talent into a mini-dynasty

I was doing some research the other week on Neal Anderson and it was amazing to me the pipeline Florida had to the NFL in the mid to late 80's with runningbacks. I think at one point during Anderson's college career he was splitting carries with two other guys that ended up going in the first round(John L Williams and Lorenzo Hampton) and then after Anderson was drated in 86 drafted Smith came in and took over in 87

[Hail Casares]

Can't say I agree. Not every team takes the #1 on the boards. The evidence is out there, not going to list it here. Teams make a judgment on who will pan out and who won't. And, perhaps most important, you still have to develop that #1 pick into a hall of famer. Goes without saying that most #1 picks never get there, or even approach it. The "blue chip # 1" is just a forecast, and we all know how accurate most forecasts are, particularly economists with MBAs.

It would have been ridiculous if the Cowboys had passed on Aikman in 1989. The Colts selected Elway even knowing he didn't want to play for them. As things turned out, it was ridiculous for the Cowboys to select Steve Walsh after already having Aikman. I give credit to the Cowboys for bringing in Norv Turner and developing Aikman, but I don't really give them credit for selecting Aikman considering he was, at the time, regarded as one of the 3 best QB prospects in NFL history. I don't think there is any comparison between Troy Aikman and JaMarcus Russell. Aikman was already regarded as the consensus top pick in 1989 after the 1987 season...Russell was a surprise pick who 'impressed in workouts'. Not really the same thing.

This. Russell was a very late riser that "cemented" his status as the top QB after torching a slow bad Notre Dame defense in the Sugar Bowl. Even still had another team been picking at the top spot it's possible Quinn went there as Quinn was seen more "NFL ready" than Russell. Russell wasn't nearly the prospect that Aikman was and was far from a no brainer top pick. Many people were clamoring for the Raiders to draft Calvin Johnson in that spot and take a QB later or trade back into the 1st round if Quinn fell down the board. Pretty much the first second that Landry and then Johnson saw Aikman practice or play they were going to make him the top pick.