HOF Class of 2016

[Jeremy Crowhurst]

Dungy getting in is absurd.

Owens being shafted is just as ridiculous.

Disagree. The level of baggage Owens has (being a bad teammate with resulting numerous team changes, showboating, lots of dropped balls) pretty much guaranteed he wasn't going to be first ballot. The number of first ballot WRs has been absurdly small anyway (Rice, Berry, Alworth, Warfield, Largent) and there's no way the voters were going to accord him the same treatment when they didn't for Cris Carter. TO will wait his turn, probably getting in a couple years from now.

And I don't see the election of Dungy as "absurd." He has innovator credit for being the first black coach to win a Super Bowl and for co-creating the Tampa-2 defense. He was a successful assistant coach for many years before getting his chance to be head coach. He's one of the two coaches on the 00s All Decade Team. His lifetime W-L percentage is excellent. And he turned around two bad franchises. That's plenty more than enough to qualify him for the HoF.

Owens is maybe a top five receiver ever. Certainly in the modern era. He shouldn't have to wait for someone that wasn't as good as him because they've been on the docket waiting. It would be like Jerry Rice having to wait for Cris Carter. If you're better, you should get in over someone who isn't period. Owens dominated on multiple teams with multiple quarterbacks. Even if he did drive them nuts. But he never got in trouble with the law. He was never involved with drugs (Taylor) never beat women, was never connected to a murder case (Harrison) and not got arrested (Sapp). Also, he didn't play his entire career in the NFL in a dome with a top 5 quarterback ever, he didn't disappear in the playoffs, and he wasn't afraid to go mix it up over the middle. If we're going to grill Owens for stuff that happened off the field, then Harrison or anyone else should be held to the same standard. So will Owens have to wait for Issac Bruce or Rod Smith now? Where is the line drawn? Sorry I don't think this was the right decision. He didn't even make the top ten which is ridiculous. So what's against him, he was a jerk? I remember Joe Horrigan explicitly stating a while back that the selection committee should take into account on the contributions on the field. Voting on their character shouldn't be relevant. Well, that's how it's supposed to work.

As or Dungy he really didn't turn around the Colts as if it was night and day. Peyton Manning was there. The Colts were coming off a bad season in 2001, but had made the playoffs the previous two seasons before that. Seeing as Peyton Manning has carried four coaches to the big show, I really don't think his tenure in Indianapolis is that special. If anything he underachieved. Mora could have just as easily been dragged. The Colts made the Super Bowl without him the very next year he left with Jim Caldwell too. I will say he did get a few quality players to help the Colts. Clark, Sanders, Mathis, and Freeney. Also, we shouldn't even be bringing attention to his race, which should have nothing to do with his coaching ability. I do appreciate what he did in Tampa with his defensive schemes. However, as for as innovators go Coryell should be in way before Dungy, and he's been waiting for years. And where is Flores? He won two Super Bowls with the Raiders, but not even a peep. Where is George Seifert? Two rings and one of the best winning percentages ever.

The argument against Seifert and Flores is that they won with someone else's team, and they provided evidence to support that argument by stinking up the joint in their next gigs.

You've accurately stated the case for Owens. Lots of people agree with you, but enough members of the selectors disagree to bump him off the ballot in the first round. Myself, I don't get it. He handled the situation in Philly badly in his second season there, but all the other talk about him being a locker room cancer anywhere else is just noise. I don't think there's any merit to it beyond what you'll hear about many great players who want to win. I think even at this point the record shows that Favre was as big of a jerk in his later years, and Donovan McNabb almost as much.

[bachslunch]

Dungy getting in is absurd.

Owens being shafted is just as ridiculous.

Disagree. The level of baggage Owens has (being a bad teammate with resulting numerous team changes, showboating, lots of dropped balls) pretty much guaranteed he wasn't going to be first ballot. The number of first ballot WRs has been absurdly small anyway (Rice, Berry, Alworth, Warfield, Largent) and there's no way the voters were going to accord him the same treatment when they didn't for Cris Carter. TO will wait his turn, probably getting in a couple years from now.

And I don't see the election of Dungy as "absurd." He has innovator credit for being the first black coach to win a Super Bowl and for co-creating the Tampa-2 defense. He was a successful assistant coach for many years before getting his chance to be head coach. He's one of the two coaches on the 00s All Decade Team. His lifetime W-L percentage is excellent. And he turned around two bad franchises. That's plenty more than enough to qualify him for the HoF.

Owens is maybe a top five receiver ever. Certainly in the modern era. He shouldn't have to wait for someone that wasn't as good as him because they've been on the docket waiting. It would be like Jerry Rice having to wait for Cris Carter. If you're better, you should get in over someone who isn't period. Owens dominated on multiple teams with multiple quarterbacks. Even if he did drive them nuts. But he never got in trouble with the law. He was never involved with drugs (Taylor) never beat women, was never connected to a murder case (Harrison) and not got arrested (Sapp). Also, he didn't play his entire career in the NFL in a dome with a top 5 quarterback ever, he didn't disappear in the playoffs, and he wasn't afraid to go mix it up over the middle. If we're going to grill Owens for stuff that happened off the field, then Harrison or anyone else should be held to the same standard. So will Owens have to wait for Issac Bruce or Rod Smith now? Where is the line drawn? Sorry I don't think this was the right decision. He didn't even make the top ten which is ridiculous. So what's against him, he was a jerk? I remember Joe Horrigan explicitly stating a while back that the selection committee should take into account on the contributions on the field. Voting on their character shouldn't be relevant. Well, that's how it's supposed to work.

As or Dungy he really didn't turn around the Colts as if it was night and day. Peyton Manning was there. The Colts were coming off a bad season in 2001, but had made the playoffs the previous two seasons before that. Seeing as Peyton Manning has carried four coaches to the big show, I really don't think his tenure in Indianapolis is that special. If anything he underachieved. Mora could have just as easily been dragged. The Colts made the Super Bowl without him the very next year he left with Jim Caldwell too. I will say he did get a few quality players to help the Colts. Clark, Sanders, Mathis, and Freeney. Also, we shouldn't even be bringing attention to his race, which should have nothing to do with his coaching ability. I do appreciate what he did in Tampa with his defensive schemes. However, as for as innovators go Coryell should be in way before Dungy, and he's been waiting for years. And where is Flores? He won two Super Bowls with the Raiders, but not even a peep. Where is George Seifert? Two rings and one of the best winning percentages ever.

Re Owens: that's not how the HoF has historically worked re seniority. And as mentioned above, there have only been five first ballot WRs ever. Had Cris Carter been first ballot, TO might maybe have had an argument for jumping the line ahead of Harrison. As it is, the voters (fairly enough one might argue) saw them as being roughly comparable -- upper crust, but not able to break into the Berry/Largent/Alworth/Rice/Warfield group. They will also likely vote in Lynch, Atwater, and Dawkins in that order even though they are probably at reverse level of accomplishment since none are at the level of Ken Houston/Ronnie Lott. If anybody jumps the line for safeties, it will probably be Ed Reed. And if you think about it, that's probably the fairest and most efficient way to do it given how clogged the finalist pool has been over the last several years. Dropped passes are an on-field issue, and in fact was the reason (excuse?) given for keeping out John Mackey until his final eligible year. Regardless, it's fair to consider. And while the HoF isn't supposed to consider character issues, the thinking for better or worse appears to be that his character issues may have hurt his teams on the field.

Re race and Dungy: he languished for 14 years as an assistant before getting his chance as head coach at a time when blacks were almost never hired as such, so one could faIrly argue that his career was negatively impacted. When he was hired, first black head coach Art Shell had only been hired seven years prior and subsequently fired and viewed as a failure. Dungy changed that not just by winning a Super Bowl but by being as successful as his white counterparts. And I say that matters --a lot. I'm not so sure guys like Mike Tomlin, Marvin Lewis, or Todd Bowles get their shot otherwise.

Jeremy's point about Dungy vs Seifert/Flores is spot on. Dungy definitely deserves credit for Tampa Bay's success from the ground up during his tenure and at the utter bare minimum stabilized Indy once he got there. And neither Flores nor Seifert came up with anything innovative at the level of Tampa-2 that I'm aware of. Seifert (114-62 .648) does have a good regular season W-L percentage, but not as good as Dungy's (139-69 .668) -- and Dungy did this while coaching more games. Flores meanwhile isn't nearly as good as either in this regard (97-87 .527) -- I don't think he has a case at all, two SB wins notwithstanding.

[Ness]

Re Owens: that's not how the HoF has historically worked re seniority. And as mentioned above, there have only been five first ballot WRs ever. Had Cris Carter been first ballot, TO might maybe have had an argument for jumping the line ahead of Harrison. As it is, the voters (fairly enough one might argue) saw them as being roughly comparable -- upper crust, but not able to break into the Berry/Largent/Alworth/Rice/Warfield group. They will also likely vote in Lynch, Atwater, and Dawkins in that order even though they are probably at reverse level of accomplishment since none are at the level of Ken Houston/Ronnie Lott. If anybody jumps the line for safeties, it will probably be Ed Reed. And if you think about it, that's probably the fairest and most efficient way to do it given how clogged the finalist pool has been over the last several years. Dropped passes are an on-field issue, and in fact was the reason (excuse?) given for keeping out John Mackey until his final eligible year. Regardless, it's fair to consider. And while the HoF isn't supposed to consider character issues, the thinking for better or worse appears to be that his character issues may have hurt his teams on the field.

Re race and Dungy: he languished for 14 years as an assistant before getting his chance as head coach at a time when blacks were almost never hired as such, so one could faIrly argue that his career was negatively impacted. When he was hired, first black head coach Art Shell had only been hired seven years prior and subsequently fired and viewed as a failure. Dungy changed that not just by winning a Super Bowl but by being as successful as his white counterparts. And I say that matters --a lot. I'm not so sure guys like Mike Tomlin, Marvin Lewis, or Todd Bowles get their shot otherwise.

Jeremy's point about Dungy vs Seifert/Flores is spot on. Dungy definitely deserves credit for Tampa Bay's success from the ground up during his tenure and at the utter bare minimum stabilized Indy once he got there. And neither Flores nor Seifert came up with anything innovative at the level of Tampa-2 that I'm aware of. Seifert (114-62 .648) does have a good regular season W-L percentage, but not as good as Dungy's (139-69 .668) -- and Dungy did this while coaching more games. Flores meanwhile isn't nearly as good as either in this regard (97-87 .527) -- I don't think he has a case at all, two SB wins notwithstanding.

You did bring up some interesting aspects of Owens I didn't think about. Or rather, didn't think of in a certain way. I still think that we're dealing with a top five player probably ever to play at his position. And the fact that he didn't even make the top ten is really disturbing in regards to the thought processes of the voters. I certainly don't think Tony Dungy should have gone in above Owens. He isn't a top five coach of all time or close to it. Owens actions effecting his teams on the field? Possibly, yes. But his presence alone made any team he was one significantly better with him than without him. His drops are the only thing I could see as a negative. He wasn't known for taking playoffs off. He wanted to be out there and certainly wanted the ball at all costs. Harrison just wasn't a better receiver than Owens for me. Owens should leapfrog Harrison. He was essentially better at everything other than his hands.

Just to wrap up with Dungy and the race thing, I still think it's an inappropriate angle to take. His race shouldn't matter in terms of what he can or can't accomplish. So if Dungy was white he'd be less deserving of what he had done? Does he even get in the Hall of Fame if he is white? And Denny Green was hired in 1992 and was having success in Minnesota by the time Dungy was hired. I'm black and I find the black narrative insulting. Not to say that racial issues don't exist, but judge a man and his accomplishments based on how well he is at his job. None of this affirmative action stuff. Dungy was an innovator, but Flores and Seifert have two rings each. Ok they did take over teams that were already established. And flamed out after they left those organizations fair enough. However, Dungy had the advantage of having a top 5 QB all time in his prime when he got to Indy. The same guy that has taken three other coaches to the Super Bowl. Honestly I think Dungy's public image post football and helped his case. If he had stayed out of the national spotlight we probably aren't having his discussion. I feel this is also going to help Warner.

Interesting discussion non the less.

[rhickok1109]

I don't get why they can't make these decisions while the candidates are still alive.

Because they made the right decision when Stabler was still alive and bowed to sentiment after his death.

[bachslunch]

You did bring up some interesting aspects of Owens I didn't think about. Or rather, didn't think of in a certain way. I still think that we're dealing with a top five player probably ever to play at his position. And the fact that he didn't even make the top ten is really disturbing in regards to the thought processes of the voters. I certainly don't think Tony Dungy should have gone in above Owens. He isn't a top five coach of all time or close to it. Owens actions effecting his teams on the field? Possibly, yes. But his presence alone made any team he was one significantly better with him than without him. His drops are the only thing I could see as a negative. He wasn't known for taking playoffs off. He wanted to be out there and certainly wanted the ball at all costs. Harrison just wasn't a better receiver than Owens for me. Owens should leapfrog Harrison. He was essentially better at everything other than his hands.

Just to wrap up with Dungy and the race thing, I still think it's an inappropriate angle to take. His race shouldn't matter in terms of what he can or can't accomplish. So if Dungy was white he'd be less deserving of what he had done? Does he even get in the Hall of Fame if he is white? And Denny Green was hired in 1992 and was having success in Minnesota by the time Dungy was hired. I'm black and I find the black narrative insulting. Not to say that racial issues don't exist, but judge a man and his accomplishments based on how well he is at his job. None of this affirmative action stuff. Dungy was an innovator, but Flores and Seifert have two rings each. Ok they did take over teams that were already established. And flamed out after they left those organizations fair enough. However, Dungy had the advantage of having a top 5 QB all time in his prime when he got to Indy. The same guy that has taken three other coaches to the Super Bowl. Honestly I think Dungy's public image post football and helped his case. If he had stayed out of the national spotlight we probably aren't having his discussion. I feel this is also going to help Warner.

Interesting discussion non the less.

Agreed, interesting discussion. HoF chat interests me quite a lot.

It's an interesting question regarding the affirmative action related issues. I'm part Native American, so it's something I've been kind of sensitive to over the years -- maybe a bias on my part. I'd think Dungy were HoF worthy regardless of his skin color, but for me at least, the affirmative action issue counts as a plus. And if Green had had the exact same career as Dungy, I'd think he belongs in (unfortunately that's not the case).

Note also that I'm not saying Dungy is an elite level HoF coach like Noll, Halas, Shula, Brown, Lambeau, or Lombardi. But I think he's a very reasonable second tier guy, arguably as good as or better than all of John Madden, George Allen, Weeb Ewbank, Sid Gillman, Marv Levy, or Bud Grant. There's ample precedent for Dungy's election.

As to why Dungy this time and not TO? One additional thought might be that Dungy had been a finalist for a few years and the seniority thing cropped up again. And if you buy into the idea that "if you're in, you're in and when doesn't matter once you're in" there's a kind of sense to that perhaps. I'm sure TO will be elected soon enough and I think deservedly so. Lots of fine players didn't get in first time around.

I've seen arguments that coaches really shouldn't be regular candidates along with players, that they should be lumped together with contributors in one category. I think there's real merit to that argument.

Thanks for the thoughts. Enjoying it.

[John Maxymuk]

I have to respectfully disagree about Owens. There is off the field and there is in the locker room. I think locker room antics like his do cause rifts in the team and have an effect on the on field performance of the team. Some talented players are not worth the trouble they cause.

[paulksandiego]

What happened to Marvin Harrison? Is there a good reason he wasn't at the NFL Honors show?

[ChaseStuart]

Harrison injury in '07 really changed things. But before hand, it's easy to argue he was just as, if not more dominant than, Owens. He had 41 games with 100 yards/TD; Owens had 32.

http://pfref.com/tiny/i6IDS

[ChaseStuart]

Dungy is 12th in career winning percentage and 9th in wins over 0.500. Hell, Dungy's winning percentage is better than Belichick's. It's not like he was not a valid candidate.

[CaptainComeback]

Owens should have made it this season (along WITH Harrison)....the overall career value/cumulative numbers, the five 1st team All-Pro selections, and the eyeball test present an overwhelming case....the guy is clearly, at worst, one of the top 8 wide receivers of the Super Bowl era....most of the arguments against him involve intangibles, supposition, and mere speculation....