Time's running out for Webb, Cunningham, McDonald and others.

[readjack]

Devin Hester is not the only returner who I think should go in! I offered five here:

https://www.windycitygridiron.com/2016/ ... cago-bears

But impact as position players is irrelevant unless they had greatness as position players. Parrish did, but I think he should be in just as a corner. Albert Lewis had greatness as a punt blocker but I know plenty of people would vote him in on his CB career alone. Gale Sayers rightly got credit for the combined rushing/returning but he needed that with his short career. If he played a full career as a RB but didn't do much as a returner he would have gotten in too.

And here are the offensive stats for some of those guys you mentioned:
* Upchurch: 14.9 yards per touch, 27 TD
* HESTER: 11.8 yards per touch, 17 TD
* White Shoes: 11.5 yards per touch, 27 TD
* Dante Hall: 9.2 yards per touch, 9 TD
* Cribbs: 7.9 yards per touch, 9 TD
* E. Metcalf: 6.8 yards per touch, 43 TD
* Patterson: 6.7 yards per touch, 37 TD
* Br. Mitchell: 6.7 yards per touch, 16 TD

The only one who had a Pro Bowl-level offensive season was Metcalf in 1995, catching 104 passes for 1,189 yards and 8 TD. And he didn't even get in for that. Offense is not a relevant part of the PFHOF conversation for these returners.

Haha ... I agree and disagree on Bryan's takes on Hester as well but know he will make the HOF. Hopefully others like Eric Metcalf, Brian Mitchell, Timmy Brown, Lemar Parrish and Abe Woodson will as well, since they had more impact as regular players. Billy Johnson and Upchurch have cases similar to Hester and Hall had impact but a shorter career.

[readjack]

Sorry, should be "of those seven." I added someone after typing it initially.

Return stats from 30 years old and on:
* Upchurch: 65 PR, 10.9 avg., 2 TD, 1x TD leader, 1x avg leader — 0 kick returns — 1x AP1/PB
* White Shoes: 127 PR, 10.1 avg, 1 TD — 2 KR, 19.5 avg, 0 TD
* Gray: 158 PR, 10.5 avg, 2 TD, 1x avg leader — 263 KR, 24.7 avg., 2x avg. leader, 1x yards leader, 2x TD leader — 2x AP1, 1x AP2, 3x PB
* E. Metcalf: 113 PR, 8.4 avg, 1 TD — 64 KR, 20.9 avg., 0 TD
* Br. Mitchell: 230 PR, 10.3 avg., 2 TD — 288 KR, 23.1 avg, 3 TD, 1x yards leader
* Cribbs: 27 PR, 8.2 avg, 0 TD — 39 KR, 28.2 avg, 0 TD
* HESTER: 109 PR, 9.6 avg, 2 TD — 149 KR, 26.1 avg., 0 TD, 2x yards leader — 1x PB

So of those six, after age 30, he had the 2nd highest KR avg.

[Brian wolf]

I understand your position Jack but thats my point ... I simply feel offensive and defensive players who were more regular players but excelled at special teams should get more consideration than those that were just primarily excellent special teams players. If you consider Hester a decent receiver of defensive back thats fine but I felt Hester was utilized more as a decoy than productive player from scrimmage. Timmy Brown and Brian Mitchell I felt had more impact from scrimmage and Eric Metcalf and Ted Ginn Jr, certainly did. Johnson, Upchurch and Patterson were more like Hester, disappointing receivers, that the QBs couldnt, or wouldnt depend on.

Being a Cowboys fan during Brian Mitchell's years in Washington and Philly, I used to vocally question why he wasnt used more as a running back because he seemed to be effective everytime I saw him utilized that way but like Tasker as a receiver in Buffalo, the head coaches held him back, which was unfortunate.

Great debate and insights though ... thats what makes the forum special on this site.

[readjack]

"Great debate and insights though ... thats what makes the forum special on this site."

Definitely Brian!

My point is that I'm not even including Hester's time on offense (which I actually think was underrated, and would have been much better as an Az Hakim-type #4 than the #1 we tried to make him in '08 and '09, which he never should have been). I'm looking at him strictly as a returner, and the greatness he achieved and value he delivered from that spot.

Unlike many other great returners, Hester excelled at both punt and kick. I don't think there's any debate that he's the greatest PR ever, but he was a terrific kick returner as well, as the film, numbers, accolades and anecdotes show. I supported Steve Tasker for Canton and I think it's worth talking about Cribbs and Patterson for their work as both returners and coverage guys, but I don't find Hester not being a coverage guy (or a Pro Bowl WR) a compelling counter-argument to his consensus status as the greatest returner ever.

I don't think Cribbs or Patterson are the greatest coverage players ever, I don't think their offense moves the needle, I like the idea of Cribbs as being essentially a three-phase specialist (KR, PR, coverage) and I don't think that Hester or any other returner should have to be the singular greatest ever to reach Canton.

I also think that if voters are going to penalize returners because of low snap counts (as Dan Pompei revealed other voters did with Hester: https://www.chicagobears.com/news/exami ... -next-year), then they should vote in more centers, instead of the five they've voted in since 1987.

Ultimately I tend to view this as moot, as voters made Hester a first-ballot finalist, and every first-ballot semifinalist ever has either reached Canton or is currently eligible. But Hester is unique and if there's anyone for whom they would break that historical trend, it would be a specialist. I just don't think they will, and I don't think they should. Greatness is greatness.

Thanks for talking! More to come

[Bryan]

But I'll correct your faulty sentiment on Hester along with some stats.

"Hester was a great punt returner and a decent kick returner"

Most times leading the NFL in one of the three major KR stats: yards, average, TDs:
6 - Patterson
4 - Gray, HESTER, Bo. Mitchell, A. Woodson

Complete list of players who led the NFL in kick and punt return yards 2x apiece:
* Devin Hester

Most combined times leading the NFL in KR average or PR average:
4 - Gray (2 apiece)
3 - Upchurch (3 PR), Ron Smith (2 KR, 1 PR), Patterson (3 KR)
2 - HESTER (2 PR), White Shoes (2 PR), A. Woodson (2 KR), Sayers (2 KR)

Maybe I'm old school, but I tend to put more weight on return average than TDs or yards. Hester had one year where he had 52 kick returns....kind of hard to not lead the NFL in yards. Hester could have taken 52 touchbacks and averaged 20 yards per return and still finished second in kick return yards that year. Hester never finished in the top 4 in kick return average in any of his 11 KR seasons, much less actually lead the NFL in KR avg. Hester did rack up a lot of KR TDs over the years...he's 9th all time in that department, averaging like 0.8 KR TDs per year.

[readjack]

I hear you. I think you're being unnecessarily harsh by calling him "a decent kick returner." He had special teams coaches considering kicking it out of bounds on kickoffs. Tony Dungy changed Indy's gameplan in the Super Bowl around dealing with Hester. And you can't just slice and dice stats on any one guy without context. Hester averaged a KR TD every 59 returns. Sayers is best at every 15 (!!) and Patterson splits them at 29.6.

Among relevant players, Hester is lower in that department than Bobby Mitchell (20), Ollie Matson (24), Patterson, Leon Washington (36.5), Deion (52) and Cribbs (53) and higher than White Shoes (61.5), Gray (70), Hall (71), Bates (75), E. Metcalf (140) and Br. Mitchell (152).

Hester returned a punt for a TD every 22.5 returns, which is 5th among the 36 returners I looked at, and the four guys ahead of Hester all had under 100 career punt returns. Hester had 315. The next 300+ guy on the list is Metcalf who is 10th (351 returns, TD/35 returns), and then Sproles (TD/44) PR, Meggett (TD/50), Br. Mitchell (TD/51).

Combined, Sayers scored a return TD every 14.75 returns, while Hester is 10th in my group at 32. The nine guys above him were all under 300 combined returns while Hester had 610. The next best at 600+ combined returns is Metcalf, who had 631 combined returns and scored every 53 returns.

[readjack]

Is there anyone who you would elect to Canton on the basis of their return skills?

But I'll correct your faulty sentiment on Hester along with some stats.

"Hester was a great punt returner and a decent kick returner"

Most times leading the NFL in one of the three major KR stats: yards, average, TDs:
6 - Patterson
4 - Gray, HESTER, Bo. Mitchell, A. Woodson

Complete list of players who led the NFL in kick and punt return yards 2x apiece:
* Devin Hester

Most combined times leading the NFL in KR average or PR average:
4 - Gray (2 apiece)
3 - Upchurch (3 PR), Ron Smith (2 KR, 1 PR), Patterson (3 KR)
2 - HESTER (2 PR), White Shoes (2 PR), A. Woodson (2 KR), Sayers (2 KR)

Maybe I'm old school, but I tend to put more weight on return average than TDs or yards. Hester had one year where he had 52 kick returns....kind of hard to not lead the NFL in yards. Hester could have taken 52 touchbacks and averaged 20 yards per return and still finished second in kick return yards that year. Hester never finished in the top 4 in kick return average in any of his 11 KR seasons, much less actually lead the NFL in KR avg. Hester did rack up a lot of KR TDs over the years...he's 9th all time in that department, averaging like 0.8 KR TDs per year.

[rewing84]

Bryan won't win any fans in Houston with his take on Andre Johnson

[pgconboy]

Bryan, I am curious what 16 modern players you come up with that are all better than the rejects you highlighted. To me it looks like you would end up with classes below the normal 5 inductees, but don't want to get too ahead of myself with projections.

(Andre Johnson, Tim McDonald, Leslie O'neal, Patrick Willis, Kevin Williams, Torry Holt, Neil Smith, Ricky Watters, Eric Allen, Steve Wisniewski, Randall Cunningham, Richmond Webb, Devin Hester, Nick Mangold, Richard Sherman, Darren Woodson)

At WR if AJohnson and Holt fall short it doesn't seem like anyone else has a compelling case beyond Fitzgerald. Additionally if 5x All Pro/All Decade players in Patrick Willis and Kevin Williams are insufficient that likely caps MLB with Kuechly and no DTs. Any safeties out there that thread the needle above McDonald and Woodson? Perhaps. Looking for CBs with more impressive careers than Richard Sherman seems few and far between, etc. Having a favorite of Willie Anderson over Webb or something like Logan Mankins over Wisniewski seems within possibility but would be curious on specifics.

[Bryan]

I hear you. I think you're being unnecessarily harsh by calling him "a decent kick returner." He had special teams coaches considering kicking it out of bounds on kickoffs. Tony Dungy changed Indy's gameplan in the Super Bowl around dealing with Hester.

I don't think anyone considered kicking off out of bounds to avoid Hester. I agree that Hester was a good kick returner and the best punt returner in history. Be that as it may, does that elevate Hester to HOF status? I don't think so, but that is JMO and I've never been good at 'predicting' who actually gets into the HOF. I had the same thoughts when Ray Guy came up....was he really THAT much better than other punters, and, even if that were the case, does that justify Guy's enshrinement over a player like Tommy Davis, who not only was a great punter but also a great kicker?

Two other tangential points, then I will shut up about Hester.

*The fact that Dungy changed his gameplan, Hester still took the opening kickoff back for a TD, and the Colts still routed the Bears kind of shows how the actual 'impact' of Hester may have been overstated.

*It's hard to have 'legendary' players anymore. We get to watch every play of every game if we choose to. Guys in the 1940's would win Heisman Trophies with only a handful of people seeing them play. Bruce Smith of Minnesota won a Heisman and made a movie while scoring 5 TDs for the year. I think Hester is unique in that he became a contemporary 'legend' mainly because his time on the field was extremely limited. He would return a punt for a TD, and people would talk about it for weeks. He had a presence that made you constantly think about him when he wasn't even on the field. The only other player I can think of that had the same presence was Rocket Ismail at Notre Dame. Hester was definitely a special player.