1980 Vikings vs. 1981 Buccaneers

[CSKreager]

A pair of 9-7 NFC Central winners that came on strong to overtake teams that had been first place frontrunners most of the season in the 80 Lions and (ironically) 81 Vikings

Both teams couldn't run, but they had big play passers in Tommy Kramer/Doug Williams

They won late season games they had to win- 80 MIN won that famous Cleveland game on the hail mary, 81 TB won a division winner take all showdown at DET who had been 7-0 at home.

Both lost to NFC East champions, although MIN had an early lead at Philly while Tampa couldn't get going at Dallas.

Who was better among these seemingly mediocre 1st place teams?

[TanksAndSpartans]

Both teams couldn't run

Not trying to derail this - hopefully someone answers the main question, but the part I quoted stood out to me because I recalled James Wilder being a productive back. Stats in PFR didn't support my recollection as they show he was a FB his first 3 seasons then in his 4th season ('84), they upped his workload to 407 carries (His YPC wasn't great though). Still, should they have been featuring him in '81?

[JohnTurney]

he was a FB his first 3 seasons then in his 4th season ('84), they upped his workload to 407 carries (His YPC wasn't great though). Still, should they have been featuring him in '81?

Bucs went to one-back offense in 84...maybe seeing what Rams did with Dickerson and Washington did with Riggins...from the beginning, Bucs were a two-back team...Bell the fullback and Eckwood the halfback..but it was that era where fullbacks often were lead ball carriers---Franco, Foreman, McCutcheon (through 1975), and others were fullbacks,
and then when McKay fired they brought over Jimmy Raye from Rams to run same thing...

Bucs blocking was suspect in 1981...and maybe play calling. When they were 5-6 they brought Bill Nelsen down from the booth to the sideline and sent Boyd Dowler up ... and they whipped Packers...and then kept that going ... with the change they were 2 points away from being undefeated the rest of the way...until they turned into pumpkins vs Dallas. McKay called the run plays and Nelsen the pass plays...

I don't know if that was why they played better ... but they moves some OLmen around earlier, some injuries...guessing it was more of an execution thing.

Why they didn't give Wilder the ball more? No idea...they gave the ball to Bell a lot in 79...and the Bucs had some good games rushing but other games with nothing...inconsistent..

[Brian wolf]

I guess injuries derailed Ricky Bell in 80-81 but they could pass better anyway with House and Giles.
I would take the Vikings over the Bucs because although the Bucs had a better defense, Kramer could get hot and lead comebacks while Williams was more up and down. Had Kramer kept a lid on the turnovers, this team could have challenged the Cowboys, Eagles and Niners, better ...

[Jay Z]

he was a FB his first 3 seasons then in his 4th season ('84), they upped his workload to 407 carries (His YPC wasn't great though). Still, should they have been featuring him in '81?

Bucs went to one-back offense in 84...maybe seeing what Rams did with Dickerson and Washington did with Riggins...from the beginning, Bucs were a two-back team...Bell the fullback and Eckwood the halfback..but it was that era where fullbacks often were lead ball carriers---Franco, Foreman, McCutcheon (through 1975), and others were fullbacks,
and then when McKay fired they brought over Jimmy Raye from Rams to run same thing...

Bucs blocking was suspect in 1981...and maybe play calling. When they were 5-6 they brought Bill Nelsen down from the booth to the sideline and sent Boyd Dowler up ... and they whipped Packers...and then kept that going ... with the change they were 2 points away from being undefeated the rest of the way...until they turned into pumpkins vs Dallas. McKay called the run plays and Nelsen the pass plays...

I don't know if that was why they played better ... but they moves some OLmen around earlier, some injuries...guessing it was more of an execution thing.

Why they didn't give Wilder the ball more? No idea...they gave the ball to Bell a lot in 79...and the Bucs had some good games rushing but other games with nothing...inconsistent..

Bucs really went to one back in 1983 after an 0-7 start. Doug Williams is gone, replaced by Jack Thompson. Worst offense in the league. Wilder isn't great either. But then James Owens gets hurt. So Wilder gets the load. New Orleans comes in. Wilder carries 20 times (career high) but for only 64 yards. Scores twice. Also catches 9 passes for 50 yards. Stabler sucks for the Saints, 12-29-94 with a TD and 4 INT. But Jack Thompson is worse, 16-34-124-0-4 plus he's sacked 7 times for 57 yards in losses. Saints win 24-21.

Bucs give it another shot in Pittsburgh the next week. Steelers do what they can to help by turning the ball over seven times to the Bucs' zero. All of this gets the Bucs a 12-0 lead on four Bill Capece field goals. Wilder provides his 3 yards and a cloud of dust, 126 yards on 42 carries. 42 carries is an NFL record, breaking the record of Franco Harris, who is still playing for the Steelers. Cliff Stoudt managed to rally the Steelers in the 4th quarter and they come out with a 17-12 win. Wilder gets carry number 42 when the Steelers turn down a penalty on the Bucs so they can get the ball back. It works. 0-9 for the Bucs.

Wilder and the Bucs had better luck the next week, going 31-219 against the Vikings for the Bucs' first victory of 1983. He had less luck with his carries in a game record, Butch Woolfolk of the Giants broke that a couple of weeks later. Parcells sent Woolfolk back into the game in a rout against the Eagles, who couldn't hold the ball at all. Woolfolk gets four carries in the last 2 minutes to set the record. Wilder by this time was hurt and out for the year.

Then the Bucs go full Wilder in 1984. Wilder gets a share of his carries per game record back in a OT win against the Packers. He only got the chance when the Packers scored a tying TD on a hook and lateral in the last few seconds. He missed the record outright when his 44th carry was called back on a penalty.

[JohnTurney]

Bucs give it another shot in Pittsburgh the next week. Steelers do what they can to help by turning the ball over seven times to the Bucs' zero. All of this gets the Bucs a 12-0 lead on four Bill Capece field goals. Wilder provides his 3 yards and a cloud of dust, 126 yards on 42 carries. .

Good stuff ... your post got me curious...this game is online ... it's still mostly a 2-back offense but Wilder is the tailback and they only give the ball to him in that
but what I didn't know until you pointed it out was that they did run some one-back stuff (see still #2).

I didn't count but it looked like mostly I (green) formation (#1 and #3) ...also split backs -- red/brown--(#4)... I looked for more stuff but no other games in that 4-5 game stretch where Wilder got all the carriers... It does look like for some percentage of the time they were showing the "Detroit" formation -- two 2TEs on either side and one back.

"Detroit" is something Belichick got a lot of credit for when he was with the Lions. They used it -- I've forgotten the details in a must-win game ... and he talked about it. It allows an offense to get three receivers on either side of the formation...you don't give away "strength" anyway, that's still #2

In 1984 - 85 most of the time they were in a single back--- but the H-Back would not always be in end of line--moved around like Cox did in ATL or the H-Backs in Was or Guman in LA.

Appreciate this post... learned something new. Dowler and McKay went deep into playbook and I guess it was enough for McKay to commit to it in 1984 and then Bennet came in and kept it with Raye.

[74_75_78_79_]

Regular-season-wise, the '81 Bucs definitely had more 'bite'! A tougher team with, of course, the better defense. The NFC Central was quite grittier in '81 than '80 and TB won it with more authority than Minny did the year before. Bucs swept both playoff-flirting Packers & Lions, one lopsided win per sweep. Penultimate week at the Murph, they lose by a missed XP to a Charger team that had to win to stay alive! You think they would have brought more to Big D in the divisional round instead of going completely belly-up. Their '82 playoff match is what I thought '81 would be; or maybe yet another Danny White comeback.

Yes, the Vikings in '80 beat the Falcons in the opener albeit Atl starting out 3-3, and they dismantle Lions, 34-0, in their win over them; but 'Kramer-to-Rashad' seems to basically be the only thing defining that Vikings campaign. Just like I thought TB/Dal would be closer, you'd think the Eagles would have beaten them handily the entire divisional game instead of allowing them to still be up, 16-14, in the 3rd.


Fast-forward to '83...Pittsburgh 17, Tampa Bay 12. What a reminder! I forgot the Bucs were win-less going in (just as they were the last time they went into Pittsburgh seven years prior). That barely-win had to forecast the Steelers' late-season slide to come. Surprising/sad how the Bucs fell that hard in '83! The previous year, despite small sample-size, that 5-1 finish and giving Dallas a game seems enough for me to respect the '82 installment and assume had the season went full that they and Green Bay have a nice dogfight for the division with the one not winning it at least a likely-enough wild card near-miss at worst.

Nice pics of that TB/Pit game and great education as always, guys!!


EDIT - my mistake, Wk#15 game from '81 was at Tampa Bay, not SD

[Brian wolf]

I really felt the Eagles overlooked the Vikings in that 1980 divisional game and with a 16-14 Vikings lead, had the Vikings just protected the football, maybe an upset but I have to give the Eagles credit, they forced turnovers and exploded in the 4th quarter to put them away ...

[7DnBrnc53]

Penultimate week at the Murph, they lose by a missed XP to a Charger team that had to win to stay alive! You think they would have brought more to Big D in the divisional round instead of going completely belly-up. Their '82 playoff match is what I thought '81 would be; or maybe yet another Danny White comeback.

That 1981 game against SD was a home game for Tampa. That was the one where they had a chance to tack on to their slim lead, but Jimmie Giles bobbled a pass around the SD 25, and the Chargers picked it off (and went down and got the game winning FG). That hurt the Broncos, who could have wrapped up the division that night had Tampa won.

In the 81 playoff against Dal, though, someone I know said that the Bucs didn't run enough in that game, and they let Williams hang out to dry. That's what I remember as a nine-year old (him getting his clock cleaned).

[Bryan]

Both teams couldn't run

Not trying to derail this - hopefully someone answers the main question, but the part I quoted stood out to me because I recalled James Wilder being a productive back. Stats in PFR didn't support my recollection as they show he was a FB his first 3 seasons then in his 4th season ('84), they upped his workload to 407 carries (His YPC wasn't great though). Still, should they have been featuring him in '81?

To be filed under things that nobody cares about, but in 1983 Wilder shared carries with Mel Carver, who is in my Top 5 worst RBs I've ever seen...right below Brent McClanahan.