Professional Football Researchers Association Forum
PFRA is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the history of professional football. Formed in 1979, PFRA members include many of the game's foremost historians and writers.
readjack wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 11:00 am
I like the conversation around Doug Williams in Canton. Tough to define him as either a contributor or a senior, which clearly the Hall struggled with this year as he is in both. But there are two ways to look at his case. First is that he was the first Black QB to start and win a Super Bowl, a huge barrier to knock down and one that reverberates to this day. This might make him more of the "He got here first" type of innovator rather than the "He thought of something new" innovator, i.e. more Ralph Hay than George Halas. But that's fine with me. Yes, eventually *someone* would have been the first Black QB to win a Super Bowl, but he was the first and that matters.
Second, it's a make-up for what was clearly an interrupted Hall of Fame career. I don't think any owner would have basically chased his white franchise quarterback out of town, a guy who dragged a franchise from joke to NFC contender. Hugh Culverhouse tried to low-ball Williams, and Williams went to the USFL to get paid. He clearly was still good enough to play, as Super Bowl XXII showed. Now, it could also be said that if Culverhouse never chased him out, he might never have made it to Washington and a shot at a title, and without a title he's not in this conversation at all. That is true. But we don't know.
You're making a judgement call on Bud Adams for him being reviled, but other people won't care about that and they'll just see his accomplishments.
This is all revisionist history with Doug Williams. Yes, Culverhouse was a terrible owner who also 'chased' Steve Young out of Tampa. But Doug Williams was not having a HOF career at that point. Not even close. He played poorly in the USFL, and the Redskins were the only NFL team that wanted Williams after the USFL folded. He did great in the 1987 postseason, but that was an aberration as his previous postseason performances were terrible.
I view Williams as being a nice story, but not a HOF caliber player. Years after his SB win, the only black QBs in the NFL were still just Moon and Cunningham. The floodgates didn't open.
As for Bud Adams, I'm not sure what accomplishments people are seeing.
Cecil. Fricking. Isbell. Stanley Morgan would also be very ?!?!
I was thinking about how awful isbell would be on that list of 9 that was the name i was thinking of at first but i typed otis taylor instead of isbell my apologies
The worst part is that Isbell may need to be elected before Lewellen and Dilweg receive any consideration. The Hall seems to be gatekeeping them behind him for some reason. It's almost like the way video game companies behave sometimes, where they're like "you better buy our crappy port of a crappy game no one asked for, because if it doesn't sell well, you'll never see this franchise again". Baffling.
Had Llewellyn gotten much attention in recent (say, 30) years before Cliff Christl (and then, Clark Judge) starting drawing attention? I have read that Lambeau, other Packers from the era and Lee Remmel are quoted at various times about how valuable Llewellyn was to the team, especially given how the game was played in the '20 and '30s.
Dilweg's case is solid and this group has endorsed his induction.
Personally, I think that among Packers, Dilweg, Llewellyn, Gillingham and Howton are strong cases ahead of Isbell (and I just don't think Gilly or Howton will be allowed in the conversation).
Ronfitch wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:21 pm
Had Llewellyn gotten much attention in recent (say, 30) years before Cliff Christl (and then, Clark Judge) starting drawing attention? I have read that Lambeau, other Packers from the era and Lee Remmel are quoted at various times about how valuable Llewellyn was to the team, especially given how the game was played in the '20 and '30s.
Dilweg's case is solid and this group has endorsed his induction.
Personally, I think that among Packers, Dilweg, Llewellyn, Gillingham and Howton are strong cases ahead of Isbell (and I just don't think Gilly or Howton will be allowed in the conversation).
I didn't know Lewellen until the past few years, probably from Cliff and Clark. I wrote this piece for TOF on how the senior backlog started and looked at how Lewellen and Dilweg were covered not just during their careers but in 1946 when the Press-Gazette did an all-time Packers team. The top vote-getters:
Bryan wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:02 pm
This is all revisionist history with Doug Williams. Yes, Culverhouse was a terrible owner who also 'chased' Steve Young out of Tampa. But Doug Williams was not having a HOF career at that point. Not even close. He played poorly in the USFL, and the Redskins were the only NFL team that wanted Williams after the USFL folded. He did great in the 1987 postseason, but that was an aberration as his previous postseason performances were terrible.
I view Williams as being a nice story, but not a HOF caliber player. Years after his SB win, the only black QBs in the NFL were still just Moon and Cunningham. The floodgates didn't open.
Cunningham hasnt made the HOF yet, but I agree with Bryan. Williams leading the Redskins to a SB victory was a nice story but it all happened because of Joe Gibbs, who decided to replace his starting QB at the end of the regular season. Once Williams played a full season in 1988, he went back to the bench.
Eddie Kotal actually re-integrated the game, or tried to, even before Paul Brown. Yet he still gets no traction. A total injustice.
Bud Adams did three things, he helped start the AFL, he was the first to penalize his team by putting them on a home, artificial turf surface and he violated the merger agreement by moving his team from its original, AFL city. Not HOF worthy IMO, but by 2080, All the owners will be enshrined ...
Brian wolf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 1:12 pm
Cunningham hasnt made the HOF yet, but I agree with Bryan. Williams leading the Redskins to a SB victory was a nice story but it all happened because of Joe Gibbs, who decided to replace his starting QB at the end of the regular season. Once Williams played a full season in 1988, he went back to the bench.
Eddie Kotal actually re-integrated the game, or tried to, even before Paul Brown. Yet he still gets no traction. A total injustice.
Bud Adams did three things, he helped start the AFL, he was the first to penalize his team by putting them on a home, artificial turf surface and he violated the merger agreement by moving his team from its original, AFL city. Not HOF worthy IMO, but by 2080, All the owners will be enshrined ...
We gave Kotal his due today, and hopefully he'll have his day soon!
Brian wolf wrote: ↑Thu Oct 31, 2024 1:12 pm
Cunningham hasnt made the HOF yet, but I agree with Bryan. Williams leading the Redskins to a SB victory was a nice story but it all happened because of Joe Gibbs, who decided to replace his starting QB at the end of the regular season. Once Williams played a full season in 1988, he went back to the bench.
Eddie Kotal actually re-integrated the game, or tried to, even before Paul Brown. Yet he still gets no traction. A total injustice.
Bud Adams did three things, he helped start the AFL, he was the first to penalize his team by putting them on a home, artificial turf surface and he violated the merger agreement by moving his team from its original, AFL city. Not HOF worthy IMO, but by 2080, All the owners will be enshrined ...
Agreed 100% BW I'm a no on Adams for a whole host of reasons same thing for modell
I feel like the main thing getting owners nominated a lot is that they stay involved with the game and its history, for better or worse, for a very long time. Their influence is outsized as a result, and I notice that quantity over quality of influence is vastly preferred in the contributor category. Jack Vainisi's legacy just didn't stay relevant in the league near as long as Art Modell's, and that's the whole story.
I thought this contributor category was a joke back when it was first suggested, and it's certainly lived up to all my expectations since then. But this description might be the funniest item yet:
"Frank “Bucko” Kilroy: Worked in player personnel and scouting for the Philadelphia Eagles, Washington Redskins and Dallas Cowboys. He was the Patriots’ general manager from 1979 to 1982 and vice president from 1983 to 1993."
This, remember, is supposed to describe a career that merits close consideration for a spot in the Hall of Fame, the sport's highest honor.
An early look at one of next year's distinguished finalists, once the lesser candidates have been sifted out:
Joe Kuharich: Coached in the NFL for several years, with two or maybe three teams. Had at least one winning record. Once wore mismatched socks on sidelines for luck.
who would be a third worse option than taylor glad we can agree on banks and plunkett id be ok with otis taylor actually 100%
Cecil. Fricking. Isbell. Stanley Morgan would also be very ?!?!
I was thinking about how awful isbell would be on that list of 9 that was the name i was thinking of at first but i typed otis taylor instead of isbell my apologies
I like Taylor too! Probably my number two AFL guy after Sestak. However, Sestak's career was too short so I have already accepted his fate. Taylor, on the other hand, has a good argument but suffers from Chief fatigue (Dawson, Bell, Thomas, Robinson, Buchannan, Lanier, etc), and it's only gonna compound when the current crop start retiring ...
"Gentlemen, it is better to have died a small boy than to fumble this football."
