2019 Pro Football Hall of Fame Semi-Finalists

[bachslunch]

Is the primary knock on Flores his years in Seattle, or is it that he just won with the team that Madden & Davis built? Or is it more along the lines of "five good seasons in twelve years doesn't get you into Canton unless you buy a ticket"?

For me, it's all of these to varying degrees. The short career and mediocre W-L regular season record is a problem for me as well.

[Bryan]

Here is how I would vote...to echo a bit of what Ralph said, it seems like we've had the same group of 'meh' players for the last 5 years. I'd rather see the oddball name like Mike Kenn on the list than another year of pretending that John Lynch and Darren Woodson were HOF players (who knew, right?).

Steve Atwater - no
Champ Bailey - I guess, but I never really understood the over-the-top All Pro selections
Ronde Barber - no
Tony Boselli - not now, perhaps he'll get a Dick Stanfel selection in 2038
Isaac Bruce - no
LeRoy Butler - no
Don Coryell - yes (in the minority)
Alan Faneca - yes
Tom Flores - no
Tony Gonzalez - yes
Torry Holt - no
Steve Hutchinson - yes
Edgerrin James - no
Jimmy Johnson - no
Ty Law - no
John Lynch - no (please)
Clay Matthews - no
Kevin Mawae - no
Karl Mecklenburg - no
Sam Mills - no
Ed Reed - yes
Richard Seymour - no
Zach Thomas - yes (in the vast minority)
Hines Ward - no
Darren Woodson - no

[Bryan]

Is the primary knock on Flores his years in Seattle, or is it that he just won with the team that Madden & Davis built? Or is it more along the lines of "five good seasons in twelve years doesn't get you into Canton unless you buy a ticket"?

I think it is the "won with Al Davis' team" stigma for Flores. Probably a bit unfair to Flores. I'd put in Buddy Parker or Jimmy Johnson in before Flores, because those guys won multiple titles and had a major role in building their teams.

Winning the 1980 Super Bowl was Flores' best accomplishment. Defeating the Chargers in San Diego in the AFC Championship game was his biggest win. I think having played SD twice in the regular season helped Flores, and the big play of the game IMO was their first TD, which was a flukish 65-yard Plunkett-to-Chester TD pass that was similar to Unitas-to-Mackey in SB V. The Raiders got up early in the game and were able to bleed out the clock in the end (they allowed 434 yards).

1981 was a terrible follow-up for Flores. Not only did they miss the playoffs altogether at 7-9, they set a record IIRC by being shutout in 3 straight games. Ick.

1982 & 1983 are probably the trickiest parts of Flores' resume. I think the Raiders had the most talented team in the NFL both of those years, especially with the addition of Marcus Allen in 82 and Mike Haynes in 83. Losing a home playoff game to Richard Todd is not good, so I don't really view 1982 as a 'success' for Flores. Perhaps that is a bit too harsh. In 83 the Redskins went 14-2 with both losses being by 1 point, but its interesting to me how much 'better' the Raiders were from a talent standpoint. They had noticeable advantages at DL, LB, DB, and matched up well with the Redskins at the skill positions. The only area in which the Redskins were better was OL. No one came close to challenging the Raiders in the 1983 postseason; every game was a route. Steelers game was 31-3 partway through the 3rd, Seahawks was 27-0, Redskins 35-9.

I'm not sure if the Raiders underachieved with Flores in 1984 & 1985, but not winning a playoff game and being upset both times isn't good for Flores' HOF chances. The Raiders had defeated the Dolphins late in the year in 1984, and IIRC they were the #1 seed in 1985 and had defeated the Pats in the regular season as well.

One thing that Flores never had was a great QB. He made due with Plunkett long after Plunkett had past his expiration date. Perhaps it is expecting too much of Flores to win in the 1984 & 1985 postseason with a creaking QB.

[rhickok1109]

who cares if he was a terrible blocker thats what i called nitpicking

Maybe, but that's a gigantic nit