Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Veeshik_ya wrote:That he'll never make the hall of fame is one of the biggest mysteries of my football life.

You'll find the world a lot less mysterious when you learn that there are other valid viewpoints besides your own. Everybody understands your argument, but by all means repeat it as many times as you want. It won't change anything.

Is that clear enough for you, or do you need me to rephrase any of it?

Veeshik_ya wrote:Let's attack this from another direction.

If someone said to you, "Here's the scenario: worst team in the league, new owner, rookie coach with no NFL experience, and no quarterback. Give me the absolute best (realistic) case scenario you can think of for this coach to accomplish in five years", what would you come back with?

Best case scenario: trade RB for 3 1st round picks, 3 2nd round picks, 1 3rd round pick, and 1 6th round pick.

Johnson spent a #1 1991 overall pick on Russell Maryland (nice player, but...), a #1 overall supplemental pick on QB Steve Walsh after already taking QB Troy Aikman #1 overall in the regular draft (the Walsh pick would have been the #1 overall pick in the 1990 draft), and STILL won the Super Bowl in 1992 with probably the most talented team in the NFL. Johnson was a great coach, but its amazing that he got so little in return for two #1 overall picks in 1990 and 1991 yet still won the Super Bowl in 1992.

Its funny how "lucky" the Cowboys have been when it comes to getting top draft picks. In the middle of their long postseason run of the 70's, they drafted Too Tall Jones #1 overall in 1974, Randy White #2 overall in 1975, and Tony Dorsett #2 overall in 1977. Bad teams were continually willing to give up their top draft spots to the Cowboys in exchange for mediocre Cowboys players. Things like that made Gil Brandt "smarter".

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:You'll find the world a lot less mysterious when you learn that there are other valid viewpoints besides your own. Everybody understands your argument, but by all means repeat it as many times as you want. It won't change anything.

Is that clear enough for you, or do you need me to rephrase any of it?

Interesting that you speak of clarity. I assume you're still busy assembling the lobby to remove Don Shula and Chuck Noll from the hall of fame since they had a number of 9 win (or less) seasons?

If I had to choose just one? Johnson. It's not even close.

Bryan wrote:

Veeshik_ya wrote:Let's attack this from another direction.

If someone said to you, "Here's the scenario: worst team in the league, new owner, rookie coach with no NFL experience, and no quarterback. Give me the absolute best (realistic) case scenario you can think of for this coach to accomplish in five years", what would you come back with?

Best case scenario: trade RB for 3 1st round picks, 3 2nd round picks, 1 3rd round pick, and 1 6th round pick.

Johnson spent a #1 1991 overall pick on Russell Maryland (nice player, but...), a #1 overall supplemental pick on QB Steve Walsh after already taking QB Troy Aikman #1 overall in the regular draft (the Walsh pick would have been the #1 overall pick in the 1990 draft), and STILL won the Super Bowl in 1992 with probably the most talented team in the NFL. Johnson was a great coach, but its amazing that he got so little in return for two #1 overall picks in 1990 and 1991 yet still won the Super Bowl in 1992.

Its funny how "lucky" the Cowboys have been when it comes to getting top draft picks. In the middle of their long postseason run of the 70's, they drafted Too Tall Jones #1 overall in 1974, Randy White #2 overall in 1975, and Tony Dorsett #2 overall in 1977. Bad teams were continually willing to give up their top draft spots to the Cowboys in exchange for mediocre Cowboys players. Things like that made Gil Brandt "smarter".

In fairness to Johnson that 1991 draft was kind of a turd. Not much top end talent. Toddy Lyght was a top 5 pick that year. Yeah as far as #1 picks go Russell Maryland is pretty mundane but given who there was to choose from he was one of the 5-10 most successful players in that class. Ironically some of the best players in that 1991 draft were 2nd rounders like Favre, Watters, etc. Of the first round guys taken Maryland was one of the very few that panned out.

Veeshik_ya wrote:

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote:Hey, tell us a little more about how Johnson was a master of the salary cap!

I'm more than willing to destroy you in a tit for tat if necessary, but first I want to hear a compelling case for/against Dungy or Johnson from you.

Go:

Oh dear Lord (and no, that's not me addressing you), does your grandiosity know no bounds?

Very well.

Johnson did something that many others have done, both before and after him -- taken a team from the basement to the Super Bowl in a few years. But he also did something nobody else has ever done -- left his team at its peak, giving an opportunity to judge him on an apples-to-apples basis.

Jerry basically screwed Johnson out of the chance to get into the Hall of Fame when he said "anyone can coach this team to a Super Bowl" and then proved it. Barry Switzer's record coaching the team is almost as good as Johnson's, and Switzer had to operate within the confines of the salary cap while Johnson didn't (its first year was 1994). I think we all agree that Barry Switzer is not a Hall of Fame calibre coach.

So then you say, well, he built that great Dallas team. You say he built it on his own, acting as chief scout and G.M., others would suggest Bob Ackles played a major part in that, but fine. We'll say that Johnson did it all. But what did he do? He had a first-ballot Hall of Fame QB waiting to be plucked first overall in the draft, then he was the beneficiary of the most lopsided trade in the history of pro football. Is it to Johnson's credit that he was the guy on the other end of the phone when Mike Lynn decided to blow his brains out? You apparently say yes, it was a testament to Johnson's team building skills that he got another GM to make such a terrible, terrible deal. Others would disagree. Obviously, the Cowboys made some great pickups by trade and free-agency, and Johnson is undoubtebly entitled to some credit for that. But a lot of the key pieces were already there in 1989 -- Irvin, Tuinei, Newton, Norton.

Well, maybe I'm being too harsh on good old Jimmy. Is there anything else on his resume that we can use to evaluate his candidacy, to see if he showed his stuff somewhere else? Why yes, there is!

You guys can compare Jimmy in Miami to Shanahan going, or Gibbs returning, to D.C., but the reality is that Jimmy was still in his coaching prime. He was still a young man, and was only seven years removed from his first season as the head coach in Dallas. And while it's true that he didn't sink the ship in Miami, holding steady for four years does not scream "Hall of Fame". He had four years to build the team his way, and granted, he was limited to using only his own team's draft picks to do so, but the result was a team that wasn't anything special, and in fact did better under the next guy -- also, nobody's nominee for a Hall of Fame coach.

It's easy to fall in love with the two rings and say he should get in just for that reason alone. I expect that at some point, that is exactly what will happen. But for me, you judge a candidate by looking at what he did, what contributions he made. A big part of that is looking at the guy there before him and the guy there after him and asking, was he better than that guy? For guys like Shula, Noll, and Walsh, the contributions that they made are undeniable. In Johnson's case his success is relatively fleeting, his contribution to it is not at all clear (thirty years later Jimmy and Jerry still don't agree on the role each played in building that team), and most importantly, when given a chance to duplicate that success, he couldn't come anywhere close.

Jeremy Crowhurst wrote: Oh dear Lord (and no, that's not me addressing you), does your grandiosity know no bounds?

Very well.

Johnson did something that many others have done, both before and after him -- taken a team from the basement to the Super Bowl in a few years. But he also did something nobody else has ever done -- left his team at its peak, giving an opportunity to judge him on an apples-to-apples basis.

Jerry basically screwed Johnson out of the chance to get into the Hall of Fame when he said "anyone can coach this team to a Super Bowl" and then proved it. Barry Switzer's record coaching the team is almost as good as Johnson's, and Switzer had to operate within the confines of the salary cap while Johnson didn't (its first year was 1994). I think we all agree that Barry Switzer is not a Hall of Fame calibre coach.

So then you say, well, he built that great Dallas team. You say he built it on his own, acting as chief scout and G.M., others would suggest Bob Ackles played a major part in that, but fine. We'll say that Johnson did it all. But what did he do? He had a first-ballot Hall of Fame QB waiting to be plucked first overall in the draft, then he was the beneficiary of the most lopsided trade in the history of pro football. Is it to Johnson's credit that he was the guy on the other end of the phone when Mike Lynn decided to blow his brains out? You apparently say yes, it was a testament to Johnson's team building skills that he got another GM to make such a terrible, terrible deal. Others would disagree. Obviously, the Cowboys made some great pickups by trade and free-agency, and Johnson is undoubtebly entitled to some credit for that. But a lot of the key pieces were already there in 1989 -- Irvin, Tuinei, Newton, Norton.

Well, maybe I'm being too harsh on good old Jimmy. Is there anything else on his resume that we can use to evaluate his candidacy, to see if he showed his stuff somewhere else? Why yes, there is!

You guys can compare Jimmy in Miami to Shanahan going, or Gibbs returning, to D.C., but the reality is that Jimmy was still in his coaching prime. He was still a young man, and was only seven years removed from his first season as the head coach in Dallas. And while it's true that he didn't sink the ship in Miami, holding steady for four years does not scream "Hall of Fame". He had four years to build the team his way, and granted, he was limited to using only his own team's draft picks to do so, but the result was a team that wasn't anything special, and in fact did better under the next guy -- also, nobody's nominee for a Hall of Fame coach.

It's easy to fall in love with the two rings and say he should get in just for that reason alone. I expect that at some point, that is exactly what will happen. But for me, you judge a candidate by looking at what he did, what contributions he made. A big part of that is looking at the guy there before him and the guy there after him and asking, was he better than that guy? For guys like Shula, Noll, and Walsh, the contributions that they made are undeniable. In Johnson's case his success is relatively fleeting, his contribution to it is not at all clear (thirty years later Jimmy and Jerry still don't agree on the role each played in building that team), and most importantly, when given a chance to duplicate that success, he couldn't come anywhere close.

1) I agree Jones' statements have played a role in people diminishing Johnson's accomplishments. But all Switzer proved is that he knew how not to f*ck something up. If I cook a great meal and hand it over to you to plate it up, did you do anything? Johnson wins this point.

2) So Johnson had a first ballot Hall of Fame QB waiting to be plucked? If you're wearing hindsight goggles, yes he did. But you can't apply what you know now to what people *thought* they knew then. Go back and read the pre-draft write-ups on can't-miss prospects JaMarcus Russell and Tony Mandarich if you think it's as easy as taking the number one guy on pundits' draft boards. Johnson wins again.

3) Johnson was the beneficiary of the most lopsided trade in NFL history? Yep. And he was also the initiator.

4) I've already addressed your observation about his winning tenure in Miami. You can't hold Johnson to higher standards than other Hall of Fame coaches. Well, I guess you can.
Next...

Veeshik_ya wrote: 1) I agree Jones' statements have played a role in people diminishing Johnson's accomplishments. But all Switzer proved is that he knew how not to f*ck something up. If I cook a great meal and hand it over to you to plate it up, did you do anything? Johnson wins this point.

2) So Johnson had a first ballot Hall of Fame QB waiting to be plucked? If you're wearing hindsight goggles, yes he did. But you can't apply what you know now to what people *thought* they knew then. Go back and read the pre-draft write-ups on can't-miss prospects JaMarcus Russell and Tony Mandarich if you think it's as easy as taking the number one guy on pundits' draft boards. Johnson wins again.

3) Johnson was the beneficiary of the most lopsided trade in NFL history? Yep. And he was also the initiator.

4) I've already addressed your observation about his winning tenure in Miami. You can't hold Johnson to higher standards than other Hall of Fame coaches. Well, I guess you can.

Next...

You're entitled to your opinion, but the Hall of Fame selection committee agrees with me.

As a Cowboys fan, I would like to throw my 2 cents that how I perceived things back in 1989-1990

- As Buddy Ryan told Jimmy Johnson when he came to the Cowboys: "There are no East Carolinas in the NFL". With the Miami Hurricanes, they had many mediocre rivals (back then they still were an Independent team) and I believe that Johnson wasn't prepared.

- I never understood why they drafted Steve Walsh having already drafted Troy Aikman and the Herschel Walker trade didn't looked so lopsided back then. Of the veteran players the Cowboys got, runnning back Darrin Nelson refused to report to Dallas and was dealt to San Diego. Alex Stewart never played for Dallas. And I was shocked when Everson Walls went to the Giants in 1990 where he won a Super Bowl that season. And I agree that many key players (Mark Tuinei, Nate Newton, Bill Bates, Jim Jeffcoat, Ken Norton, even Michael Irvin and Chad Hennings, before he completed his military service) were added when Tom Landry was the coach.

-I was surprised when they got Jay Novacek from the Cardinals in 1990, as he barely started in his first five seasons. But I saw playing at Wyoming, and was special.

-Other player I was shocked when he was let go was RB Paul Palmer, and after he was the star of the Cowboys lone win in 1989 at Washington. But time got it right, as he didn't played in the NFL after that season (he was a star in NFL Europe with the Barcelona Dragons, though).

Teo wrote:As a Cowboys fan, I would like to throw my 2 cents that how I perceived things back in 1989-1990

- As Buddy Ryan told Jimmy Johnson when he came to the Cowboys: "There are no East Carolinas in the NFL". With the Miami Hurricanes, they had many mediocre rivals (back then they still were an Independent team) and I believe that Johnson wasn't prepared.

- I never understood why they drafted Steve Walsh having already drafted Troy Aikman and the Herschel Walker trade didn't looked so lopsided back then. Of the veteran players the Cowboys got, runnning back Darrin Nelson refused to report to Dallas and was dealt to San Diego. Alex Stewart never played for Dallas. And I was shocked when Everson Walls went to the Giants in 1990 where he won a Super Bowl that season. And I agree that many key players (Mark Tuinei, Nate Newton, Bill Bates, Jim Jeffcoat, Ken Norton, even Michael Irvin and Chad Hennings, before he completed his military service) were added when Tom Landry was the coach.

-Other player I was shocked when he was let go was RB Paul Palmer, and after he was the star of the Cowboys lone win in 1989 at Washington. But time got it right, as he didn't played in the NFL after that season (he was a star in NFL Europe with the Barcelona Dragons, though).

Walsh was a known commodity to Johnson, who didn't see eye to eye with Aikman the first year or two. Like any rookie, there was a question of how good he was, and Johnson was comfortable with Walsh in the event things went sour.

Walls' release came back to bite Johnson initially. As a Giant, I think Walls had a key pick against Johnson's Cowboys. But ultimately, Walls' release was a Belichick type move, questioned at the time, but youth movement oriented. It wasn't long before Walls was out of the league. Long term, the decision was a good one.