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Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 1:52 am
by Ness
L.C. Greenwood wrote:IWhen was Bob Griese ever the best QB in his career? Like Hines Ward, he was among the elite, and that's what the HOF is about. Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence, and was a stellar postseason player. On top of everything else, and the receiving leader for a storied franchise, that will eventually be sufficient.
Griese was a first team All Pro twice. So he was at least thought to be by the media. You let someone like Ward in, it just opens the door for so many players that were never considered the best at their position in the NFL at any one point in their career. Like Fred Taylor. Or Rod Smith. Or Joe Flacco.

And Ward didn't change the NFL with his blocking. He was a good blocker sure, but he didn't do anything that no one hadn't thought of in the last 50 plus years in the NFL. It's kind of like saying that that Cris Carter changed the NFL with his hands. No, he just had good hands. And the franchise he plays for should be irrelevant.

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:46 am
by bachslunch
JWL wrote:
JuggernautJ wrote:His blocking (for example) set a standard for the receivers on his team and showed the backs he was willing to sacrifice his body for their protection and success. Players like that (to use the tired old dogrel) make everyone else on the Team better and therefore make the Team itself better.
Okay, he did block well for a receiver but how much of a factor should it be? Has there been any nerd research that determined Ward helped the Steelers gain an extra I don't know, 150 yards per season, with deft blocking?

Hardly anyone mentions others who blocked just as well or better (Art Monk, Keyshawn Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald).

Based on what one reads and hears, one is led to believe Ward is the only wide receiver in history who blocked effectively.
Excellent points. Can only add that I can't think of a single TE, never mind WR, for whom blocking prowess made any difference in their HoF case. In fact, several TEs are in the HoF despite their lack of blocking skills (Shannon Sharpe, Ozzie Newsome, Kellen Winslow). If it doesn't matter for TEs who are supposed to have this ability, why does it matter for WRs?

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:31 am
by rhickok1109
bachslunch wrote:
JWL wrote:
JuggernautJ wrote:His blocking (for example) set a standard for the receivers on his team and showed the backs he was willing to sacrifice his body for their protection and success. Players like that (to use the tired old dogrel) make everyone else on the Team better and therefore make the Team itself better.
Okay, he did block well for a receiver but how much of a factor should it be? Has there been any nerd research that determined Ward helped the Steelers gain an extra I don't know, 150 yards per season, with deft blocking?

Hardly anyone mentions others who blocked just as well or better (Art Monk, Keyshawn Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald).

Based on what one reads and hears, one is led to believe Ward is the only wide receiver in history who blocked effectively.
Excellent points. Can only add that I can't think of a single TE, never mind WR, for whom blocking prowess made any difference in their HoF case. In fact, several TEs are in the HoF despite their lack of blocking skills (Shannon Sharpe, Ozzie Newsome, Kellen Winslow). If it doesn't matter for TEs who are supposed to have this ability, why does it matter for WRs?

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:53 am
by NWebster
Hail Casares wrote:
L.C. Greenwood wrote:When was Bob Griese ever the best QB in his career? Like Hines Ward, he was among the elite, and that's what the HOF is about. Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence, and was a stellar postseason player. On top of everything else, and the receiving leader for a storied franchise, that will eventually be sufficient.
I wouldn't say Ward was among the elite. 4 PB's in his career. No All Pro berths.

Good to very good player. I think he gets in because he was on the Steelers, nice guy. Etc but he's someone I would put in the Hall of Good to Very good. Not the Hall of Fame. If he hadn't played for the Steelers, he's not a HOF'er.
So why was it so crazy that we had to wait for ZERO time All Pro's Tim Brown and Andre Reed to get in? I think Ward I'd borderline and probably HOVG myself, but Brown was a compiler and never the best as well.

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:55 am
by Hail Casares
JWL wrote:
Hail Casares wrote:...Curtis Martin in terms of I'm not sure he was ever truly great...he was just productive for a long time...
Martin finished top three in rushing four times (1995, 1999, 2001, 2004). That might be considered great by some. Maybe others would say no.
I more meant in terms of I don't think anyone viewed Martin as a "great" player or a HOF'er really during his career. His 1,000 yard streak almost seemed more like an interesting statistical footnote or trivia piece during his career then at the end of it all you looked up and had the "Holy ****" realization of his overall career totals and he kind of had to go into the HOF. I just never remember watching Martin play and coming away thinking, "Wow, this is a truly great player."

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:02 am
by Hail Casares
NWebster wrote:
Hail Casares wrote:
L.C. Greenwood wrote:When was Bob Griese ever the best QB in his career? Like Hines Ward, he was among the elite, and that's what the HOF is about. Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence, and was a stellar postseason player. On top of everything else, and the receiving leader for a storied franchise, that will eventually be sufficient.
I wouldn't say Ward was among the elite. 4 PB's in his career. No All Pro berths.

Good to very good player. I think he gets in because he was on the Steelers, nice guy. Etc but he's someone I would put in the Hall of Good to Very good. Not the Hall of Fame. If he hadn't played for the Steelers, he's not a HOF'er.
So why was it so crazy that we had to wait for ZERO time All Pro's Tim Brown and Andre Reed to get in? I think Ward I'd borderline and probably HOVG myself, but Brown was a compiler and never the best as well.
Not sure who you are addressing here? I've never commented on Brown or Reed's HOF inductions. FWIW, I think both were superior players to Ward. Brown made 9x Pro Bowls to Ward's 4 and had 9x 1,000 yard seasons(all in a row). Brown also at least lead the NFL in a major statistical category at one point. Reed went to nearly twice as many PB's as Ward, but even still he's a fairer comp to Ward than Brown was/is. Reed only had 4x 1,000 yard seasons(still kind of surprises me it was that few). Given context of era and how each guys was viewed at the time in the NFL I think Reed was the better player, though

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:15 am
by bachslunch
NWebster wrote:
Hail Casares wrote:
L.C. Greenwood wrote:When was Bob Griese ever the best QB in his career? Like Hines Ward, he was among the elite, and that's what the HOF is about. Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence, and was a stellar postseason player. On top of everything else, and the receiving leader for a storied franchise, that will eventually be sufficient.
I wouldn't say Ward was among the elite. 4 PB's in his career. No All Pro berths.

Good to very good player. I think he gets in because he was on the Steelers, nice guy. Etc but he's someone I would put in the Hall of Good to Very good. Not the Hall of Fame. If he hadn't played for the Steelers, he's not a HOF'er.
So why was it so crazy that we had to wait for ZERO time All Pro's Tim Brown and Andre Reed to get in? I think Ward I'd borderline and probably HOVG myself, but Brown was a compiler and never the best as well.
Regardless of anything else, Tim Brown was named a first team all pro twice, by Sporting News, Pro Football Writers, and Pro Football Weekly in 1988 and by Sporting News in 1997. The former was for kick returning, but the second was indeed for WR play.

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:53 am
by L.C. Greenwood
Ness wrote:
L.C. Greenwood wrote:IWhen was Bob Griese ever the best QB in his career? Like Hines Ward, he was among the elite, and that's what the HOF is about. Ward also changed the game with his blocking excellence, and was a stellar postseason player. On top of everything else, and the receiving leader for a storied franchise, that will eventually be sufficient.
Griese was a first team All Pro twice. So he was at least thought to be by the media. You let someone like Ward in, it just opens the door for so many players that were never considered the best at their position in the NFL at any one point in their career. Like Fred Taylor. Or Rod Smith. Or Joe Flacco.

And Ward didn't change the NFL with his blocking. He was a good blocker sure, but he didn't do anything that no one hadn't thought of in the last 50 plus years in the NFL. It's kind of like saying that that Cris Carter changed the NFL with his hands. No, he just had good hands. And the franchise he plays for should be irrelevant.
From 2001-03 Ward was easily among the elite at his position, and we can't suddenly discount his other strong years. Keep in mind, Ward did not play with a HOF-caliber QB until 2004, and that's always a factor in these discussions. Even Lance Alworth played with a good QB like John Hadl, while Ward was catching passes from Kordell Stewart. Rod Smith took years to contribute in a meaningful way to the Broncos, so that held down his numbers. Smith never was a SB MVP, either. Fred Taylor never won anything with the Jags, but Joe Flacco is still in his early 30s. Put Ward on indoors with the pass happy Colts for his entire career, and there's no doubt his numbers zoom upward.

Hines Ward changed the NFL with his blocking excellence, NFL Films chronicled this fact, and they're a very objective source. Prior to Ward, there were good blocking WRs, but he took it to another level, and blocking by the WR position became much more recognized during his career. Ward's blocking helped a HOF back, and his receiving talents helped power a two time SB champ, and a contender for years. The Steelers had many nationally televised games during those years, and the evidence is on tape. You almost never saw an iso of Ward getting blown up on a block, because it happened so rarely.

And franchises matter, because of comparisons with other HOF players and the level of success for that team. Even though Ward played in a more pass-friendly era, the resume is just too strong, and he was a better postseason player and TD maker than many other receivers already enshrined.

It's going to happen, the overall qualifications are there. Signature moments, changed the NFL, key player on a winning organization, and career passing king for a storied franchise.

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:09 pm
by ChrisBabcock
I finally hunted down an article I was looking for in regards to Andersen's career numbers adjusted for era. 2nd all time in "expected accuracy" using the methodology presented here...

http://www.footballperspective.com/the- ... -rankings/

Re: HOF Finalists named

Posted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:19 pm
by L.C. Greenwood
ChrisBabcock wrote:I finally hunted down an article I was looking for in regards to Andersen's career numbers adjusted for era. 2nd all time in "expected accuracy" using the methodology presented here...

http://www.footballperspective.com/the- ... -rankings/
Glad to see Anderson get elected. A testimony of his greatness was hitting 25-28 field goal attempts at the age of 47. Nick Lowery was a good one, but kickers really have to be great for a longer time, or have signature moments, so I don't see him ever making it.