Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

JohnH19 wrote:why do we have these discussions about guys that aren't considering retirement anytime soon?

This.

I'll admit some responsibility here for taking the bait. That said, I agree it's pretty pointless to discuss someone who is as short of retirement and as borderline-to-below as Eli seems to be. At best you can only speculate since things could change in the 3-5 years he likely has left.

JohnH19 wrote:

mwald wrote: Some players just have a way of stepping up at crucial times or making their teammates better. Recent examples: Reggie White made the whole team better by his presence; JJ Watt really doesn't. Randy Moss was phenomenal but never really made his team better outside of his production; Steve Smith could catch two balls but have more impact on his team winning than Moss ever did. Can I prove this objectively? Nope.

Strange comments, subjective or not. JJ Watt doesn't step up or make his team better? I can think of 31 teams that would immediately improve with him in the lineup. Randy Moss didn't make the '98 Vikings better than the '97 edition? He didn't make the '07 Pats better than the '06 team?

Reggie White was...well, he was Reggie White but he played on some great teams and only won one championship. His three sacks in SB 31 came when the result was all but assured. JJ Watt's QB is Brian Hoyer. Good luck with that. Steve Smith was/is terrific but comparing him to Randy Moss in any sense is a huge stretch.

Back to Eli and Canton; why do we have these discussions about guys that aren't considering retirement anytime soon?

To folks who judge players by the numeric patterns they discern in their exhaust fumes, I imagine they do seem strange. Let's discuss.

We're talking about J.J. Watt? Of the Houston Watts, er, Texans? You know, that team comprised of nothing but J.J. Watt, he of the "let's make fun of Zach Mettenberger because he took a selfie"? He of the "let's make sure I get a photo on Twitter of me wearing a Rhonda Rousey t-shirt so the whole world can see me piggy back on her greatness"? That guy? The guy who other NFL players referred to, accurately, as a "Try Hard?" The guy who racks up more dragon kills, extra levels, and bonus lives than anyone could shake a jock strap at but when the big bell rings usually comes up empty? That guy?

Chiefs at Texans, Wild Card round this year: Comments to the press leading up to the game Watt was already making excuses for his injury. Then the game happened and the defensive player of the year pulled a bigger disappearing act than Claude Rains. It's an all too common thread with this guy.

You can think of 31 teams that would immediately improve with him in the lineup? Improve how? I'm pretty sure if Bill Belichick had the opportunity to take him he'd only do it for a third of the price, because Watt simply isn't worth the price. And if that happened and Watt pulled his usual "me" crap, he'd be out the door the same way Moss got booted after 2007. Why? Because he didn't help the team win a Super Bowl. That's what it's all about, and he'd be the last D-lineman I'd select for my team.

As for Moss, yep 1998 was the exception that proves the rule. He wowed the league, then never had the same impact for the Vikings again. Production yes. Impact no. Then he repeated the act, statistically, in 2007, a feat that was so impressive to Tom Brady and Bill Belichick that they kicked him out the door. Who do you think Belichick would rather have on his team, Randy Moss or Steve Smith?

bachslunch wrote:

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Eli strikes me as better than Jim Plunkett or Tobin Rote or Jack Kemp (none of whom belong in) but if elected he might give Bobby Layne competition as the worst HoF QB with two championships.

I think Manning would be most comparable to Kemp in that group. I really don't know if Manning was "better" than Tobin Rote...I would guess he wasn't but Manning has obviously had the more stable and productive career. Plunkett is a weird case, and maybe in some way is the most like Manning. He was very clutch in those 1980 and 1983 postseason runs.

The comment about Layne is interesting. At least when Layne retired, he held most of the career passing records (due in some part to the length of his career). If we are counting pre-Super Bowl AFL titles, then I would say Blanda is easily the worst HOF QB with two championships, although he probably got in as much for his scoring 2000+ points than his QB skills. Its kind of a gray area of QB rankings...do you rank Layne higher than Len Dawson, Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, etc.?

Bryan wrote:

bachslunch wrote:

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Eli strikes me as better than Jim Plunkett or Tobin Rote or Jack Kemp (none of whom belong in) but if elected he might give Bobby Layne competition as the worst HoF QB with two championships.

I think Manning would be most comparable to Kemp in that group. I really don't know if Manning was "better" than Tobin Rote...I would guess he wasn't but Manning has obviously had the more stable and productive career. Plunkett is a weird case, and maybe in some way is the most like Manning. He was very clutch in those 1980 and 1983 postseason runs.

The comment about Layne is interesting. At least when Layne retired, he held most of the career passing records (due in some part to the length of his career). If we are counting pre-Super Bowl AFL titles, then I would say Blanda is easily the worst HOF QB with two championships, although he probably got in as much for his scoring 2000+ points than his QB skills. Its kind of a gray area of QB rankings...do you rank Layne higher than Len Dawson, Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, etc.?

I'm using Kiran Rasaretnam's system as the basis. Layne ranks 67th in "best 4," 50th in "best 7," and 35th in "best 10." Dawson (9, 6, 6) and Griese (26, 24, 17) rank better there, while Bradshaw (101, 74, 45) is worse. Dawson also won three titles while Bradshaw of course has four.

EDIT: made an error about Dawson, who technically has only two championships, one in 1962 and one in 1969. 1966 was the first Super Bowl loss.

mwald wrote: To folks who judge players by the numeric patterns they discern in their exhaust fumes, I imagine they do seem strange. Let's discuss.

We're talking about J.J. Watt? Of the Houston Watts, er, Texans? You know, that team comprised of nothing but J.J. Watt, he of the "let's make fun of Zach Mettenberger because he took a selfie"? He of the "let's make sure I get a photo on Twitter of me wearing a Rhonda Rousey t-shirt so the whole world can see me piggy back on her greatness"? That guy? The guy who other NFL players referred to, accurately, as a "Try Hard?" The guy who racks up more dragon kills, extra levels, and bonus lives than anyone could shake a jock strap at but when the big bell rings usually comes up empty? That guy?

Chiefs at Texans, Wild Card round this year: Comments to the press leading up to the game Watt was already making excuses for his injury. Then the game happened and the defensive player of the year pulled a bigger disappearing act than Claude Rains. It's an all too common thread with this guy.

You can think of 31 teams that would immediately improve with him in the lineup? Improve how? I'm pretty sure if Bill Belichick had the opportunity to take him he'd only do it for a third of the price, because Watt simply isn't worth the price. And if that happened and Watt pulled his usual "me" crap, he'd be out the door the same way Moss got booted after 2007. Why? Because he didn't help the team win a Super Bowl. That's what it's all about, and he'd be the last D-lineman I'd select for my team.

As for Moss, yep 1998 was the exception that proves the rule. He wowed the league, then never had the same impact for the Vikings again. Production yes. Impact no. Then he repeated the act, statistically, in 2007, a feat that was so impressive to Tom Brady and Bill Belichick that they kicked him out the door. Who do you think Belichick would rather have on his team, Randy Moss or Steve Smith?

Wow! You sound like a frustrated Texans fan blaming all of their shortcomings on their best player. That's okay. I know quite a few guys who do that. As an aside, I'll just say that Mettenberger was apparently a bit of a jerk during his rookie year so he probably had some good old fashioned locker room abuse coming.

Moss actually had two more very good seasons with the Pats - one with Matt Cassel doing the throwing - before Tom and Bill kicked him out the door early in the 2010 season.

Finally, can you provide your definition of an "impact" player? I'd be interested since I don't seem to be getting it.

JohnH19 wrote:

mwald wrote: To folks who judge players by the numeric patterns they discern in their exhaust fumes, I imagine they do seem strange. Let's discuss.

We're talking about J.J. Watt? Of the Houston Watts, er, Texans? You know, that team comprised of nothing but J.J. Watt, he of the "let's make fun of Zach Mettenberger because he took a selfie"? He of the "let's make sure I get a photo on Twitter of me wearing a Rhonda Rousey t-shirt so the whole world can see me piggy back on her greatness"? That guy? The guy who other NFL players referred to, accurately, as a "Try Hard?" The guy who racks up more dragon kills, extra levels, and bonus lives than anyone could shake a jock strap at but when the big bell rings usually comes up empty? That guy?

Chiefs at Texans, Wild Card round this year: Comments to the press leading up to the game Watt was already making excuses for his injury. Then the game happened and the defensive player of the year pulled a bigger disappearing act than Claude Rains. It's an all too common thread with this guy.

You can think of 31 teams that would immediately improve with him in the lineup? Improve how? I'm pretty sure if Bill Belichick had the opportunity to take him he'd only do it for a third of the price, because Watt simply isn't worth the price. And if that happened and Watt pulled his usual "me" crap, he'd be out the door the same way Moss got booted after 2007. Why? Because he didn't help the team win a Super Bowl. That's what it's all about, and he'd be the last D-lineman I'd select for my team.

As for Moss, yep 1998 was the exception that proves the rule. He wowed the league, then never had the same impact for the Vikings again. Production yes. Impact no. Then he repeated the act, statistically, in 2007, a feat that was so impressive to Tom Brady and Bill Belichick that they kicked him out the door. Who do you think Belichick would rather have on his team, Randy Moss or Steve Smith?

Wow! You sound like a frustrated Texans fan blaming all of their shortcomings on their best player. That's okay. I know quite a few guys who do that. As an aside, I'll just say that Mettenberger was apparently a bit of a jerk during his rookie year so he probably had some good old fashioned locker room abuse coming.

Moss actually had two more very good seasons with the Pats - one with Matt Cassel doing the throwing - before Tom and Bill kicked him out the door early in the 2010 season.

Finally, can you provide your definition of an "impact" player? I'd be interested since I don't seem to be getting it.

No Texans-related frustrations at all. Just a guy who views things based on what causes a team to win or lose in the big picture. To that end, I find how people react in certain situations more valuable than the scat they leave behind.

By the way John, no personal shot directed at you. You asked, I answered. Since - in your own words, you don't seem to be getting it - there's no reason to say the same thing twice.

Bryan wrote:

bachslunch wrote:

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Eli strikes me as better than Jim Plunkett or Tobin Rote or Jack Kemp (none of whom belong in) but if elected he might give Bobby Layne competition as the worst HoF QB with two championships.

I think Manning would be most comparable to Kemp in that group. I really don't know if Manning was "better" than Tobin Rote...I would guess he wasn't but Manning has obviously had the more stable and productive career. Plunkett is a weird case, and maybe in some way is the most like Manning. He was very clutch in those 1980 and 1983 postseason runs.

The comment about Layne is interesting. At least when Layne retired, he held most of the career passing records (due in some part to the length of his career). If we are counting pre-Super Bowl AFL titles, then I would say Blanda is easily the worst HOF QB with two championships, although he probably got in as much for his scoring 2000+ points than his QB skills. Its kind of a gray area of QB rankings...do you rank Layne higher than Len Dawson, Bob Griese, Terry Bradshaw, etc.?

I'm guessing that Blanda's two AFL titles as QB were a microscopic part of his HOF resume, considering they came in the league's first two years when the talent level was at its lowest,

I'd forgotten that Blanda won two titles, and according to Rasaretnam he is indeed much worse than Layne (91, 81, unranked). Thanks guys for the reminder.

But yes BD, he's really more of a composite PK-QB.

74_75_78_79_ wrote:Big Ben, to me, gets in especially if he tacks on some more of the statistical years he's really been tacking on as of late while, of course, still winning playoffs games if not more. Making it to three SBs and winning two of them with one of them being a 2-minute drill a la 'Joe Cool' twenty years earlier (albeit a slightly more 'rugged'/tacklers-bouncing-off-him, quicker, less-'surgical' version). Being a Steeler, fair or not (yes, not fair), also helps his case.

I think Ben has already passed the Bus test, I think he passed it during the 2014 season, when he had the monster games. If he retired today Roethlisberger would go into the HOF, although it may take five years or so. He already made some major points on his HOF resume, the three AFC Championships and two Super Bowls, the late drive to win Super Bowl XLIII, and his career stats are beginning to pile up as he has cracked the top 15 in the career passing categories. But it was the big games, being the first QB to throw two 500-yard games, that I think put him over the top, and the 113-56-0 record as a starter is not shabby, nor is the 11-6 record in the postseason. He turns 34 next month, and given 4-5 more quality seasons he will probably become a first ballot guy, but another ring would make that a mere formality. He's not going to be in the same discussion with Brady and Peyton among the greatest ever, but he's right there with Drew Brees on the next rung below them. When it's all said and done I think Ben will be in the 11-15 class among the top QB's of all time, and to me that is a solid Hall of Famer.