1957 49ers- What if?

[CSKreager]

If they don't blow that big second half lead against Detroit, how would they have fared against Cleveland in the title game?

[Saban1]

I believe that they would have beaten Cleveland in the 1957 title game. Milt Plum popped a hamstring a few days before that game, so Cleveland started Tommy O'Connell, who had been out due to an injury for a month or so. O'Connell clearly wasn't ready and threw a pick 6 against Detroit and threw another interception that led to an easy touchdown for the Lions, both in the first half. He probably would not have done much better against the 49ers. Also, the game would have been played in San Francisco.

Cleveland was not the same as the powerhouse that had dominated pro football during the Otto Graham era. Gone were not only Graham, but also guys like Marion Motley, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, Dub jones, Bill Willis, Frank Gatski, Chick Jagade, Tommy Thompson, Tommy James, Curly Morrison, Tom Catlin, Ken Carpenter, Abe Gibron, Lin Houston, Lou Rymkus, George Young, Special Delivery Jones, Lou Saban, etc.

[Saban1]

I should mention that the 49ers had some great offensive personnel including their "million dollar backfield" of Y.A. Tittle, Hugh McElhenny, Joe Perry, and John Henry Johnson. Also, ends Billy Wilson, Gordie Soltau, Clyde Connor, and R.C. Owens. Of course, the 49ers did not have Detroit's tough defense or big game experience.

In the hypothetical 1957 title game itself, there may not have been rookie Milt Campbell's fumbled kickoff that led to another easy TD for Detroit, or the fake field goal attempt that gave the Lions another TD that pretty much broke the game wide open for Detroit. So, with a few breaks, maybe the weaker Cleveland team could have stolen the game and the championship that year. The Browns did have a fairly good rookie fullback named Jim Brown.

[oldecapecod11]

Brown? Who dat?
Was that the guy who left his cleat marks on the front and back of #70?

[Saban1]

Brown? Who dat?
Was that the guy who left his cleat marks on the front and back of #70?

Same guy, but Sam did a pretty good job of containing JB with the help of some guys named Modzelewski, Grier, Katcavage, and Robustelli. Lovetere too for a year.

[SixtiesFan]

Brown? Who dat?
Was that the guy who left his cleat marks on the front and back of #70?

Same guy, but Sam did a pretty good job of containing JB with the help of some guys named Modzelewski, Grier, Katcavage, and Robustelli. Lovetere too for a year.

Yes, that's how it was, and I was following pro football then. From 1958-63, counting a 1958 playoff game, the Giants were 9-3-1 against the Browns. Jim Brown had some big days against the Giants (second game 1960, 1962 season opener, and first game 1963), but the Giants defense stopped JB cold in some games and kept him under his usual average in others.

Before a game, the press would build up the "man to man" battle between Brown and Huff, but as you write it was a team effort by the Giants.

[oldecapecod11]

by SixtiesFan » Sun Nov 29, 2015 11:57 am

Saban wrote:
Same guy, but Sam did a pretty good job of containing JB with the help of some guys named Modzelewski, Grier, Katcavage, and Robustelli. Lovetere too for a year.

"Yes, that's how it was, and I was following pro football then. From 1958-63, counting a 1958 playoff game, the Giants were 9-3-1 against the Browns. Jim Brown had some big days against the Giants (second game 1960, 1962 season opener, and first game 1963), but the Giants defense stopped JB cold in some games and kept him under his usual average in others.
"Before a game, the press would build up the "man to man" battle between Brown and Huff, but as you write it was a team effort by the Giants."

Ditto... and, lest we forget, the umbrella would close in support quickly with Lynch and Nolan and Patton and the OLBs
all contributing to - as is said - a team effort.
(Too bad they can't do that now. It's a two-man dog-and-pony show these days...)

[Saban1]

I mentioned before that I believe that the Giants of 1961-63 were an all-star team. Talk about Y.A. Tittle, Frank Gifford, Alex Webster, Del Shofner, Phil King, Joe Morrison, Rosey Brown, Darrell Dess, Ray Wietecha, Jack Stroud, Greg Larson, Joe Walton, Don Chandler, Andy Robustelli, Rosie Grier, John Lovetere, Dick Modzelewski, Jim Katcavage, Tom Scott, Sam Huff, Cliff Livingston, Dick Lynch, Jim Patton, and Erich Barnes. Those were good players and most were named to All-Pro teams sometime during their careers and those who weren't were good players.

There was also Mickey Walker, a terror on the special teams. Jerry Hillebrand only played in 1963 and beyond, but made 5 interceptions at left linebacker in 1963, even though he wasn't listed as a starter. Dick Lynch was unreal in 1963. He seemed to be everywhere on defense.

Quite a team, the Giants of 1961-63.

[Saban1]

I believe that they would have beaten Cleveland in the 1957 title game. Milt Plum popped a hamstring a few days before that game, so Cleveland started Tommy O'Connell, who had been out due to an injury for a month or so. O'Connell clearly wasn't ready and threw a pick 6 against Detroit and threw another interception that led to an easy touchdown for the Lions, both in the first half. He probably would not have done much better against the 49ers. Also, the game would have been played in San Francisco.

Cleveland was not the same as the powerhouse that had dominated pro football during the Otto Graham era. Gone were not only Graham, but also guys like Marion Motley, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, Dub jones, Bill Willis, Frank Gatski, Chick Jagade, Tommy Thompson, Tommy James, Curly Morrison, Tom Catlin, Ken Carpenter, Abe Gibron, Lin Houston, Lou Rymkus, George Young, Special Delivery Jones, Lou Saban, etc.

Oops! I had a feeling, so I looked it up and Tom Catlin did play for Cleveland in 1957. He only played in 4 games and did not start in any. Catlin played for the Browns in 1953 and 1954 and played well. Tom was named 2nd team All-Pro by the United Press in 1954. Catlin was drafted into the military in 1955 and did not return to the Browns until 1957. I believe that he missed much of the season due to not being released from the Army (or one of the other branches) until sometime in the 2nd half of the 1957 season. The starting linebackers for Cleveland in 1957 were Walt Michaels, Vince Costello, and Gaylon Fiss, so Catlin did not reclaim his starting linebacker spot in 1957 or 1958. I imagine that he was a pretty good backup. Catlin was traded to Philadelphia (or picked up on waivers) in 1959. Don't know if he asked to be traded or not.

After his playing days, Tom Catlin was a long time assistant coach on Chuck Knox's coaching staff.

[BD Sullivan]

I believe that they would have beaten Cleveland in the 1957 title game. Milt Plum popped a hamstring a few days before that game, so Cleveland started Tommy O'Connell, who had been out due to an injury for a month or so. O'Connell clearly wasn't ready and threw a pick 6 against Detroit and threw another interception that led to an easy touchdown for the Lions, both in the first half. He probably would not have done much better against the 49ers. Also, the game would have been played in San Francisco.

Cleveland was not the same as the powerhouse that had dominated pro football during the Otto Graham era. Gone were not only Graham, but also guys like Marion Motley, Dante Lavelli, Mac Speedie, Dub jones, Bill Willis, Frank Gatski, Chick Jagade, Tommy Thompson, Tommy James, Curly Morrison, Tom Catlin, Ken Carpenter, Abe Gibron, Lin Houston, Lou Rymkus, George Young, Special Delivery Jones, Lou Saban, etc.

Catlin was traded to Philadelphia (or picked up on waivers) in 1959. Don't know if he asked to be traded or not.

Catlin was traded during the 1959 training camp to the Cardinals, but by the time the season started, he was with Philly--sounds like he was released, since no indication of a trade came up.

He had originally come to the Browns in the monster 15-player trade in 1953 from the "new" Colts.