Another story that has been semi-debunked

JohnTurney
Posts: 2445
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:28 pm

Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by JohnTurney »

This is on Twitter today --- there was a contract issue, but the agent part has been shown to not be accurate ...
Mike North
@North2North
Jim Ringo walked into Vince Lombardis office to discuss a contract but he made a mistake… He brought an agent with him and that was a no no back then .Lombardi says hey I have 1 call to make can you wait outside? They do .Then they come back and Lombardi told Ringo he was traded to philly .. oooph #Packers #nflhistorian
@ESPN1000

https://totalpackers.com/2015/07/that-s ... -is-false/
Here’s how it really went down, according to Lombardi’s director of player personnel, Pat Peppler.

“That was not true. It was a prevalent story and the falsehood that was told — I think Vince thought it was to his advantage to go along with it.”

“When I called Ringo the next year, before the 1964 season, I had talked to Vince about it. And when I got a hold of Ringo he started to complain about this and complain about that and complain about his contract. I said, ‘Wait a minute, Jim. You wrote your own contract last year and the old man gave you $1,000 more than you asked for.’ Then he said, ‘Give me $25,000 or trade me.’ I went to Vince and told him. I said he wants $25,000 or he wants to be traded. I’m sure Vince had already been working on a trade, but he liked to make it seem like he did it snap. Anyway, he gets a hold of Philadelphia, makes the trade and, within an hour, called me back and said he was calling Ringo. No agent.”

https://www.packers.com/news/jim-ringo- ... rs%20later.
Contrary to an often-repeated story, Lombardi didn't trade Ringo because he showed up at the Packers' offices with an agent back when players typically negotiated their own contracts. "I didn't have an agent," Ringo said years later. "I really don't know how that story got going." In fact, Ringo broke the news of the trade on a radio station in his hometown of Easton, Pa.
Sonny9
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:57 pm

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by Sonny9 »

I believe part of it was wanting to be closer to his home in Pennsylvania. I bet he wished he could take it back and grab 3 more rings. He would have made those teams a bit better too. Plus the extra money. 1966 season 15k for winning Super Bowl 1. 8600 for beating Dallas

In 1964, the year Ringo was Traded, Starr sack% went up quite a bit. 60-63 3.9, 4.8, 9.5, 4.3
The next 8 seasons only 1 under 10 at 9.4. 4 of the 8 were 13% or higher
Last edited by Sonny9 on Fri Dec 20, 2024 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Ronfitch
Posts: 458
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 11:41 am
Location: Twin Cities, MN

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by Ronfitch »

Yeah, John wrote about this back in ‘17 …

https://packerspastperfect.wordpress.co ... jim-ringo/

Somewhere - I think it was in an obit in the L.A. Times - there is a Ringo quote about being in PA at the time of the trade.

This and the Forrest Gregg story are two stories that keep circulating. Cliff Chisrtl has written about both.
"Now, I want pizza." 
 - Ken Crippen
conace21
Posts: 965
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:08 am

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by conace21 »

Dan Daly and Bob O'Donnell may have been the first to debunk the myth, in their 1990 book "The Pro Football Chronicle." According to PFC, the story first appeared in Jerry Kramer's book "Instant Replay." But Ringo denied having an agent, and said he never even met with Lombardi. He told Pat Peppers, the Director of Player Personnel, how much money he was looking for, and that he wanted to be traded if he didn't get it.

Daly and O'Donnell exposed a number of myths in their decade mythology sections. A couple others of note.

-Art Rooney did not buy the Steelers after winning $250K-$350K at the racetrack. Rooney's betting bonanza occurred in 1937, four years after he became an NFL owner.

-Bob St. Clair did not block 10 field goal attempts in one season. San Francisco's opponents only missed 11 field goal attempts all year. St. Clair might have gotten 10 blocks if you include extra point attempts and exhibition games.

-Ben Davidson didn't break Joe Namath's jaw, as a famous picture indicated. It was fellow defensive end Ike Lassiter who broke Namath's cheekbone, not his jaw.
User avatar
GameBeforeTheMoney
Posts: 703
Joined: Thu Jan 28, 2021 3:21 pm
Location: Texas
Contact:

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by GameBeforeTheMoney »

Cliff Christl did a great article on that story a while back on the Packers official website. One of the points made was that whether it was true or not, Lombardi certainly didn't mind the players believing it was true!

Added - here is a link to Cliff's article, which is made from excerpts of oral history interviews with Pat Peppler. In fact, the Twitter post is a direct quote from this article. There is a bit more background that Pat Peppler gave in the article, which I'll cut and paste here:

On whether his duties included more than player personnel: "I did almost all the contract work with Vince. I did what Vince told me to, but I did all the pain in the (butt) stuff. Vince would get into the contracts only with people like Jim Taylor or maybe Bart (Starr) or (Paul) Hornung. The first guy I negotiated with, the first day on the job (in 1963), was (Jim) Ringo. Vince said, 'Get a hold of Ringo,' and offer him this, this and this. Jim said, no. (He wanted) somewhat more; it wasn't outlandish. So I went to Vince and he said, 'Give it to him.' Then later that year, Jerry Kramer was contacted by an AFL team. They were trying to get him to play out his option and offering like $23,000. He was making like $16,000, I think. We had talked to (Kramer) and Vince had offered him like a $1,500 raise. But Vince felt he had to sign Kramer, so he said, 'Get a hold of Ringo for me.' I got Ringo on the phone and Vince told him that he didn't think it was fair that Kramer was going to be making that much more. So Ringo wrote his own contract. Vince gave him $1,000 more after the Kramer thing."


On the negotiations with Ringo in 1964 and whether Lombardi made the deal when Ringo brought an agent with him to Green Bay to negotiate on his behalf: "That was not true. It was a prevalent story and the falsehood that was told -- I think Vince thought it was to his advantage to go along with it."

On what actually happened in the negotiations: "When I called Ringo the next year, before the 1964 season, I had talked to Vince about it. And when I got a hold of Ringo he started to complain about this and complain about that and complain about his contract. I said, 'Wait a minute, Jim. You wrote your own contract last year and the old man gave you $1,000 more than you asked for.' Then he said, 'Give me $25,000 or trade me.' I went to Vince and told him. I said he wants $25,000 or he wants to be traded. I'm sure Vince had already been working on a trade, but he liked to make it seem like he did it snap. Anyway, he gets a hold of Philadelphia, makes the trade and, within an hour, called me back and said he was calling Ringo. No agent."

Here is the link to the full article: https://www.packers.com/news/pat-pepple ... s-15472243
Podcast: https://Podcast.TheGameBeforeTheMoney.com

Website/Blog: https://TheGameBeforeTheMoney.com

Author's Name: Jackson Michael
JohnTurney
Posts: 2445
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:28 pm

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by JohnTurney »

Ronfitch wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 11:40 pm Yeah, John wrote about this back in ‘17 …

https://packerspastperfect.wordpress.co ... jim-ringo/

Somewhere - I think it was in an obit in the L.A. Times - there is a Ringo quote about being in PA at the time of the trade.

This and the Forrest Gregg story are two stories that keep circulating. Cliff Chisrtl has written about both.
yeah, these things march along. accurate or not, partially correct or not ... this, Gregg, Hirsch "first" flanker, etc, the use of the term 'Blount rule' ...
JohnTurney
Posts: 2445
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:28 pm

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by JohnTurney »

conace21 wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 1:12 am Dan Daly and Bob O'Donnell their 1990 book "The Pro Football Chronicle."
what a good book, for that and a bunch of other reasons. I guess the debunking of these things has less momentum than the regular stories if they still appear on big accounts online. I noted, hopefully politely, that is was not 100% accurate and no one seemed to care.
JohnTurney
Posts: 2445
Joined: Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:28 pm

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by JohnTurney »

Ronfitch wrote: Fri Dec 20, 2024 11:40 pm Yeah, John wrote about this back in ‘17 …

https://packerspastperfect.wordpress.co ... jim-ringo/

Somewhere - I think it was in an obit in the L.A. Times - there is a Ringo quote about being in PA at the time of the trade.

This and the Forrest Gregg story are two stories that keep circulating. Cliff Chisrtl has written about both.
Thanks, I saw the two links I put up but missed John's. Appreciate it.
conace21
Posts: 965
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 10:08 am

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by conace21 »

JohnTurney wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 9:15 pm
conace21 wrote: Sat Dec 21, 2024 1:12 am Dan Daly and Bob O'Donnell their 1990 book "The Pro Football Chronicle."
what a good book, for that and a bunch of other reasons. I guess the debunking of these things has less momentum than the regular stories if they still appear on big accounts online. I noted, hopefully politely, that is was not 100% accurate and no one seemed to care.
Agreed. The biggest myth they debunked was Don Hutson"s 95 game streak with a reception. They came along a press release in the HOF that noted that only twice in his career had he failed to catch a pass (one was in a championship game.) They looked into it, and found it was true. Hutson was shut out in a 1941 matchup against Cleveland. He had an interception, but not a reception.. Daly and O'Donnell could only guess as to how the streak got into the books. Maybe someone misread the interception as a reception, or maybe the Packers' stat man "accidentally" overlooked it.

One tidbit that wasn't in the book: Joe Horrigan asked Daly where they found the evidence that the streak was bogus. When Daly told him "Your library," Horrigan was shocked.
Citizen
Posts: 480
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2014 9:44 am

Re: Another story that has been semi-debunked

Post by Citizen »

According to a December 1991 article in the Green Bay newspaper, Elias Sports Bureau first discounted Daly and O'Donnell's contention, saying Hutson didn't play on 9-21-41, the day his streak supposedly ended. But Eric Goska, a freelance statistician/historian who specializes in the Packers, found via the gamebook and newspaper accounts that although Hutson didn't start that day, he did play, tallying an interception but no receptions. This time Elias had to own its mistake.

One odd result of the clarification is that Tommy McDonald, Bobby Joe Conrad, and Lance Alworth all once owned the record everyone believed belonged to Hutson, but never realized it.
Post Reply