2023 Hall of Very Good Finalists

[Brian wolf]

Haha ... like I said, its not that anyone thinks Beals is better than these receivers, its just voters wanting to nominate older players they feel are deserving for the HOVG. Hugh Taylor is an older deserving receiver as well and Mal Kutner was also very effective.

Even on my initial list, which includes Don Doll, Eddie Price, Ray Krouse and John Cannady, I try to give recognition to outstanding older players that people can see and look up for themselves. After reading about Bob Mann and his blackballing in the NFL, I am convinced had he stayed with the Lions and the team payed him what he deserves, he would have easily been one of the stars of the 50s and already in the HOVG.

Speaking of outstanding 50s players, I am surprised DB Jim David for the Lions hasnt been nominated. He had crucial interceptions in three of the Lions championship game wins ...

[JameisBrownston]

I have Cloyce Box ahead of both Beals and Kutner, but behind Taylor. Bob Mann is a great what-if case, but he even had some strong seasons for Green Bay, at a time when 500 yards was more like 1000 is now.

Both of the DBs you mentioned, Doll and David, are also players I consider deserving. Once sack numbers get put up for this era (you on it, @JohnTurney?), DEs should start getting attention as well. I wonder how the guy who claimed he sacked Charlie Conerly 17 times in a game or whatever will be recorded.

[Brian wolf]

Yep, Box is a good choice. Charlie Malone and Joe Carter were receiving stars that TanksAndSpartans probably knows more about than anyone other than Chris Willis. Elbie Nickel is deserving too and could be considered the first great receiving tight end, though others believe it was Tom Fears who made the Hall ...

Ray Renfro, Bobby Walston, Max McGee and Chris Buford from the AFL as well.

Speaking of modern players, you also could list ...

John Gilliam
Haven Moses
Isaac Curtis
Tony Hill
Wesley Walker
Nat Moore
Anthony Carter ... USFL as well
Dwight Clark
Freddie Soloman

For a modern player, Darryl Turner was a short career, TD scorer like AAFC star, Alyn Beals.

[JuggernautJ]

In my opinion, Beals has a case.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/ ... alAl00.htm

He was one of the two leading receivers in the AAFC, leading the league in receptions in 1946 and TD catches every year of the league's existence. He led the AAFC in overall touchdowns twice in its four year existence.
He is, according to "us" (the PFRA as represented by Messrs.' Crippen, Reaser, Piascik, et al), one of the two ends on the All-Time AAFC team (along with Mac Speedie and over Dante Lavelli).

Then there's the "old saw" of "can you tell the history of football without him?"
And while you probably could (especially if you leave out the AAFC and other leagues not fully recognized by the NFL) Beals has a large part in the history of the AAFC. You almost certainly couldn't tell an inclusive history of that league without him.

If we are to recognize the history of football outside the exclusivity of the NFL (and many here might think that's a good thing) then Beals is worthy of consideration.
I'm not saying he is necessarily more deserving than many of those mentioned... but they aren't on this year's ballot.

We are a historical organization.
To me that means we recognize and reward players who were a part of the history of the game... it's not just a case of was X better than Y. It also includes how relevant a player, coach, etc. is or was to the chronicle of our game.

It isn't always about who was the "best athlete" at a given position (even adjusted for eras).
I'm pretty sure Cam Newton was a "better" athlete (bigger, faster, stronger) than Otto Graham... but is he more deserving of recognition by our organization?
Sometimes it is (and, imo, should be) about the history.

Now, about Peggy Parratt....

[JameisBrownston]

Elbie Nickel is deserving too and could be considered the first great receiving tight end, though others believe it was Tom Fears who made the Hall...

What makes them different from any other end from the 50s? The general consensus seems to be that the 60s starting with Ditka and Mackey is the event horizon for when tight and split ends can be distinguished.

For a modern player, Darryl Turner was a short career, TD scorer like AAFC star, Alyn Beals.

Yeah, that's a weird career, especially as it continued even into his low-volume years. Usually you only see that pure vulture archetype in RBs and Taysom Hill.

If we are to recognize the history of football outside the exclusivity of the NFL (and many here might think that's a good thing) then Beals is worthy of consideration.

Ha, as a longtime Spec Sanders and Hennigan/Powell truther, I'd certainly never be one to assert NFL privilege! Got me there.

Tell me more about Peggy Parratt, looks like someone who was probably good but I for one haven't a clue how good. Do we have any other players of his vintage in the HOVG yet?

[Brian wolf]

Good call JJ ...

Thats why I mentioned Anthony Carter, who dominated the USFL and should have done more in the NFL but his coaches and QBs, DIDNT GET THE BALL TO HIM ENOUGH! haha ... Carter could have made the HOF, he was that good, IMO ...

Daryl Turner ... my bad. Can you imagine if this guy could have kept his production going, or had more receptions?

[TanksAndSpartans]

I don't think Elbie Nickel's case depends on being the first tight end. If you take Hirsch, Billy Wilson, Nickel, Billy Howton, Fears, Harlon Hill, etc. (off the top of my head), they are all in one hall or the other except Nickel - I think it’s an omission. I’ve nominated him multiple times since I’ve been a member, but he’s never made it past the first round. Nickel > Beals for me.

[JameisBrownston]

I don't think Elbie Nickel's case depends on being the first tight end. If you take Hirsch, Billy Wilson, Nickel, Billy Howton, Fears, Harlon Hill, etc. (off the top of my head), they are all in one hall or the other except Nickel - I think it’s an omission. I’ve nominated him multiple times since I’ve been a member, but he’s never made it past the first round. Nickel > Beals for me.

Nickel pops off the page by far the least of that group, Tanks. Taylor also pops more for me, but Nickel is at least a contender. He and Renfro are on a similar level for me, below guys who peaked harder. I still want to know what about him or any other 1950s end is more or less "tight" than the rest.

[TanksAndSpartans]

I still want to know what about him or any other 1950s end is more or less "tight" than the rest.

Nothing. I think this is an incorrect argument. Maybe blame the Steelers. I think they put him in their ring of honor as a tight end. The author of the "The Golden Age of Pro Football" actually argued Fears was the first in the TE role having to make the tough catches - move the chains type plays while others went long, but I discussed with @John Turney about this and he said the film didn't back it up.

Nickel pops off the page by far the least of that group

The group I named is a pretty good group, a couple of HOF snubs in there, but Nickel holds his own. Watch the old Tel Ra videos - if he still doesn't pop for you that's fair. He stood out for me and more so than Hill who is HOVG.

[Brian wolf]

Its the Steelers though guys, the last team to leave the single-wing, which had to have helped Nickels' blocking ability. As soon as the Steelers went to the T, his numbers jumped. Had Nickel played longer into the Bobby Layne years, might have made the Hall but we dont know because he was hurt in 1957.