Continuation of Discussion Under Cam Newton

[Andy Piascik]

The discussion under the HOF and HOVG section has drifted far from Cam Newton to one that recurs regularly - how the AAFC compares to the NFL - so I'm taking the liberty of carrying it forward on the main board. It doesn't read as contentious to me. Perhaps it does to a newcomer because we've had very lengthy discussions along this line many times in the 20 years I've been posting here and unfortunately, none of those discussions have survived to refer to. For what it's worth, several of the people who used to go on at great length about how the AAFC was basically a minor league did so in a very belligerent manner. Reaser and I participated in those discussions and the lack of knowledge of those posters grew quite tiresome. If anyone comes off as contentious, maybe it's because we sometimes feel like we're re-inventing the wheel.

Reaser makes a good point about the 1949 Eagles relative to the rest of the NFL, compared to the 1949 Browns compared to the rest of the AAFC, that I had not previously thought of. Good job.

I share the results of research I did about all-pro teams of the early 1950s that relates somewhat. I looked at the three major all-pro teams from that era listed in Total Football (AP, UPI and New York Daily News) and divided the players who were named to all of the first team slots into three categories: pre-1050 NFL players, pre-1950 AAFC players and players whose careers began in 1950 or later. The results were as follows:

1950: 20 AAFC, 20 NFL, the rest players who started in 1950 or later
1951: 34 AAFC, 19 NFL, the rest players who started in 1950 or later
1952: 20 AAFC, 15 NFL, the rest players who started in 1950 or later
1953: 18 AAFC, 16 NFL, the rest players who started in 1950 or later
1954: 18 AAFC, 16 NFL, the rest players who started in 1950 or later
1955: 19 AAFC, 12 NFL, the rest players who started in 1950 or later

I don't claim there's anything definitive but those are remarkable numbers, all the more because the AAFC was always smaller than the NFL (8 teams to 10 in 1946-49, 7 teams to 10 in 1949). For what it's worth I counted Hirsch as an AAFC player. Moving him to the NFL side doesn't change the numbers much.

I am the first to recognize that many of the best NFL players of the later 1940s were older as we get to 1950 and later: Bulldog, Luckman, Baugh, van Buren, etc., indicating that the AAFC was perhaps a younger league with more stars on the rise. Still, those numbers are quite eye-popping, at least to me.

And, yes, while it's true that the Browns are well-represented, there are many others who did not play for Cleveland in the AAFC represented there as well: Weinmeister, Barwegan, Banducci, Schnellbacher, Perry, Hirscch, Tittle, Ford, Gibron, Hoernschmeyer, Grimes, Signaigo, Sanders, Rapacz, Edwards, Landry, Kissell, etc.

[JameisLoseston]

Reaser said that Sanders' film looks amazing. However, I've also heard the accusation recently that Sanders' film doesn't look nearly as good as his stats. I'd like to be the judge of this myself. How much film of Sanders is there, and does PFRA have it?

And what were the circumstances of Hirsch's ridiculous 1951 explosion, and subsequent failure to ever come close to it?

[Rupert Patrick]

I am the first to recognize that many of the best NFL players of the later 1940s were older as we get to 1950 and later: Bulldog, Luckman, Baugh, van Buren, etc., indicating that the AAFC was perhaps a younger league with more stars on the rise. Still, those numbers are quite eye-popping, at least to me.

Andy, you are an authority on the Browns and the AAFC, and I loved your book on the Browns of the 40's and 50's, and I welcome your comments on this discussion. Do you consider the NFL to be an "older" league, if you will, because it's stars couldn't jump to the AAFC, as we saw with NFL stars signing big contracts to jump to the WFL and later the USFL? The Redskins didn't have to worry about Sammy Baugh leaving them to go play for the LA Dons, for example. The AAFC, as best as I can tell, really didn't rely a whole lot on NFL castoffs, not to the degree that the AFL did in it's early years. They had to build their teams from a new crop of guys, and with the war ending the year before, they had a bunch of tough, battle-hardened young men to choose from. I know if you studied the average age of AAFC rosters to NFL rosters, the AAFC rosters would certainly be younger because of the veteran NFL players like Van Buren and Luckman and Baugh.

[Reaser]

I mentioned before, and it's known anyway, but the 1940 and 1944 NFL MVP's (Joe F. Carr Trophy) both were in there at the start of the AAFC. As was HOF'er Bruiser Kinard.

[Reaser]

Reaser said that Sanders' film looks amazing. However, I've also heard the accusation recently that Sanders' film doesn't look nearly as good as his stats. I'd like to be the judge of this myself. How much film of Sanders is there, and does PFRA have it?

You[tube] can find most of it with minimal effort. Amazing might be an overstatement, though I enjoyed watching him in the games I have, since it's more play here or there where you can see his talent, though you can still see enough to tell he's clearly one of the best players on the field. Particularly if you've seen a lot of film from the era you can -as you have to do with the lack of film from the era- decide that "it makes sense" that he would have good games/performances/etc even if the game you watch he only has 40 yards rushing on an icy field.

I only have 4 games, the one most will have seen is with an icy field but in those you can still tell what kind of runner he is, and KR, and that he was a better running TB than passing, and what type of athlete he was and so on in those games. Then he shows up on other team HL's, HL's of games, there's a couple 5-minute clips of games 'out there' where you can see a decent amount of him, there was a newreel'ish type 3 min or so clip that I remember he looked good on that was on one of the many accounts that got shutdown a long time ago that I haven't seen since. Others probably/could have more. Just my opinion, but I saw the talent there so it matches with what I've read about him and various honors/stats.

[Andy Piascik]

Yes, I'd say the AAFC was younger and mostly eschewed going after big-name NFL stars. Some players did jump, though: Lou Rymkus, Bruno Banducci, Lee Artoe, Norm Standlee. The NFL Dodgers, a good team before the war, went into the AAFC en masse as the Yankees. There were also five Cleveland Rams who sued to sign with the Browns because they didn't want to go to LA.

The AAFC did very well signing guys who were drafted by both leagues. I read somewhere that 75% of the players from the 1946 College All-Star Game who went on to play pro ball went with the AAFC and over 50% from the next three years.

It was a very fluid situation because of World War 2 that probably was beneficial to the AAFC.

[Reaser]

For what it's worth, several of the people who used to go on at great length about how the AAFC was basically a minor league did so in a very belligerent manner. Reaser and I participated in those discussions and the lack of knowledge of those posters grew quite tiresome. If anyone comes off as contentious, maybe it's because we sometimes feel like we're re-inventing the wheel.

Reaser makes a good point about the 1949 Eagles relative to the rest of the NFL, compared to the 1949 Browns compared to the rest of the AAFC, that I had not previously thought of. Good job.

How blatantly obtuse were those people ... We used to have others, Ken bails on these nowadays since we just repeat ourselves. A few that apply common sense eventually 'get it', the rest never do. Then a new batch of people comes along and repeat the process.

Thanks, I had that one from the last major AAFC discussion but don't think I posted it. Figured come up with something different instead of repeating all your research over and over again while presenting it in different ways and/or building on it, the few things I found, or repeating something Ken said, etc.

[TanksAndSpartans]

For Sanders, I acknowledged the field was icy. Hate to pick on him (Probably makes me look like the anti-Feathers guy - at least I’m not trying to take away Sanders' yards!) and had he run for 900 and not 1400, his name probably doesn't come up, but that kind of season does call some attention to a player. I didn't bring him up, mostly mentioned I didn't have the same enthusiasm as other posters. I don’t think anyone is saying he was more than about average as a passer, so looking at him as a runner against contemporaries, even for one season, I don’t take him (in a fantasy draft or whatever) over any of the HOFers - Van Buren, Dudley, Motley, Perry, etc. Nor HOVG players like Hoernschemeyer or Taliaferro. I think he was in the right place at the right time - good line (Kinard, Barwegan), ran some option plays off Buddy Young, some of the yardage may have been off QB scramble type plays, etc. I think the players I mentioned could have done similar under those circumstances with that number of carries.

On the AAFC debate, I took a quick and dirty look at what the AAFC committee published in CC on the dispersal draft - I think there’s room to go into more depth and look at how many of the players started in the NFL relative to whether they started in the AAFC (prior to '50), etc. but for now I just looked at how many played in the NFL at some future point (a few skipped ’50 and played later and some didn't play for the team they were drafted by, I counted both of those cases as played):

key = played/did not play

Colts 8/6
Yanks 7/2
Packers 5/10
Lions 4/7
Redskins 5/5
Giants 3/10
Steelers 1/9
Cardinals 2/7
Bears 2/8
49ers 2/8
Rams 3/7
Browns 4/6
Eagles 3/5

My rough total is 49 players played in the NFL post-draft and 90 didn’t. Among 139, I think there would be a stronger argument for the equality of the leagues if about 70 had played in the post-merger NFL. I also think theres a bit of a trend, not perfect, but may be there of the stronger teams incorporating less dispersal players. A deeper analysis may also consider players drafted onto former AAFC teams (Browns, 49ers, Colts) likely just displaced other AAFC players and not pre-merger NFL players.

[Saban1]

For Sanders, I acknowledged the field was icy. Hate to pick on him (Probably makes me look like the anti-Feathers guy - at least I’m not trying to take away Sanders' yards!) and had he run for 900 and not 1400, his name probably doesn't come up, but that kind of season does call some attention to a player. I didn't bring him up, mostly mentioned I didn't have the same enthusiasm as other posters. I don’t think anyone is saying he was more than about average as a passer, so looking at him as a runner against contemporaries, even for one season, I don’t take him (in a fantasy draft or whatever) over any of the HOFers - Van Buren, Dudley, Motley, Perry, etc. Nor HOVG players like Hoernschemeyer or Taliaferro. I think he was in the right place at the right time - good line (Kinard, Barwegan), ran some option plays off Buddy Young, some of the yardage may have been off QB scramble type plays, etc. I think the players I mentioned could have done similar under those circumstances with that number of carries.

On the AAFC debate, I took a quick and dirty look at what the AAFC committee published in CC on the dispersal draft - I think there’s room to go into more depth and look at how many of the players started in the NFL relative to whether they started in the AAFC (prior to '50), etc. but for now I just looked at how many played in the NFL at some future point (a few skipped ’50 and played later and some didn't play for the team they were drafted by, I counted both of those cases as played):

key = played/did not play

Colts 8/6
Yanks 7/2
Packers 5/10
Lions 4/7
Redskins 5/5
Giants 3/10
Steelers 1/9
Cardinals 2/7
Bears 2/8
49ers 2/8
Rams 3/7
Browns 4/6
Eagles 3/5

My rough total is 49 players played in the NFL post-draft and 90 didn’t. Among 139, I think there would be a stronger argument for the equality of the leagues if about 70 had played in the post-merger NFL. I also think theres a bit of a trend, not perfect, but may be there of the stronger teams incorporating less dispersal players. A deeper analysis may also consider players drafted onto former AAFC teams (Browns, 49ers, Colts) likely just displaced other AAFC players and not pre-merger NFL players.

It should be noted that the dispersal draft of AAFC players was of the three teams left behind in the 1950 merger, the Los Angeles Dons, the Buffalo Bills, and the Chicago Hornets. Four teams came into the NFL in 1950, the Browns, 49ers, Colts, and the 1949 AAFC Yankees players were split up between the New York Giants and the 1950 NFL Yanks. So, going by the number of AAFC players above, 49, would be an average of 16 players from those three remaining AAFC teams that ended up playing in the NFL after 1949.

The player limit for the AAFC teams in 1949 was 32 players, so 16 would be an average of half the players from those three teams left behind. Also, I am sure that some players went up north to play in Canada and others retired (Many of the players could make more money outside of football in those days).

[Reaser]

Yup, that's a weird way to say AAFC players 'weren't good enough for the NFL' ...

Guys like Weinmeister and Schnellbacher went to the Giants and were part of why they were a much stronger team in 1950.

Glenn Dobbs went up north in '51 and won the Jeff Nicklin Memorial Trophy for a went to Canada example Saban alluded to.

Also doesn't include someone like Elroy Hirsch who went to the Rams in '49.

And you have to take into account career length of a lot of players from that era, not like today, so playing 4 years (which all 4 could have just come in the AAFC) wasn't out of the norm, even for very good players. And a lot of guys missed the front end of what would be the normal start to their career and were coming back from war. Plus of course, injuries.

Bertelli and Sinkwich were done before 1949. Hillenbrand and Prokop were retired before AAFC players would be in the NFL.

Since a lot of these names have something in common, and I posted about it a month ago but still seems like people think the AAFC just got some normal 1946 rookies and whoever wasn't in the NFL. Again, WWII, there was a half-decade of 'draft classes' to go after (and again, consider career length during the era) so that's a lot of prime talent. Don't want to make a long list so just some NFL 1st rounders:

1942 (the AAFC started in 1946 as a reminder ...) NFL Draft
1st round 6th ov - Spec Sanders (comes back from war, 'rookie' season in the AAFC in 1946, also don't remember any of those guys listed a few posts above being injured and coming back to get 13 interceptions, but I digress -- plus discussion is quality of the league, not one player.)

1st round 10th ov - Frankie Albert (PCFL in '45, starts major pro football career in AAFC in 1946)

1943 NFL Draft (reminder, the AAFC started in 1946)
1st round 3rd ov - Glenn Dobbs (starts pro career in the AAFC in 1946)

1944 NFL Draft (reminder, the AAFC started in 1946)
1st round 1st overall - Angelo Bertelli (starts pro career in AAFC in 1946)

1st round 4th overall - Otto Graham (starts pro career in AAFC in 1946)

1st round 6th overall - Billy Hillenbrand (starts pro career in AAFC in 1946)

1945 NFL Draft (reminder, the AAFC started in 1946)

1st Round 4th overall - Eddie Prokop (starts pro career in AAFC in 1946)

1st Round 5th overall - Elroy Hirsch (starts pro career in AAFC in 1946)

1st Round 9th overall - John Yonakor (starts pro career in AAFC in 1946)

Also have guys like Norm Standlee (1941 NFL Draft 1st round 3rd overall) who played a lone season in the NFL before war, then resumed his career in the AAFC in 1946.

Or Frank Sinkwich, first overall pick of the 1943 NFL Draft, after being NFL MVP in 1944 off to service (injured during this time), resumes football career in the AAFC in 1946.