1970 Long Island Bulls

[Saban1]

As I was browsing a football website, I came across something that surprised me a little bit. I found a team called the Long Island Bulls in a league called the Atlantic Coast Football League. What surprised me was that there were seven players on that team that were former players on the New York Giants.

I know that there were other football leagues during the 60's and 70's other than the NFL and the AFL, but what surprised me was the number of former Giants players on that one team, and the fact that former Giants safety Allan Webb was the Head Coach. Webb played on those Y.A. Tittle Giants teams.

The former Giants players were LB Bill Swain, RB Ronnie Blye, DE/LB McKinley Boston, DB Al Brenner, LB Ray Hickl, DB Jim Holifield, and DT Tim McCann. I guess that those players either loved playing football or were hoping to play their way back into the NFL. I don't think any of them got back into the NFL.

Bill Swain surprised me the most because he was the starting left linebacker for the Giants in 1967, but was traded to Detroit in 1968 (expendable because the Giants got linebacker Tommy Crutcher in a trade from Green Bay) I think for either safety Bruce Maher or guard Doug Van Horn or both. Don't know of the full details of that trade.

Swain was a veteran who played for the Rams in 1963, Vikings in 1964, Giants in 1965 and 1967 (missed 1966 due to a knee injury) and Detroit in 1968 and 1969. He was a reserve on those teams except for 1967 when he started at left linebacker for the Giants. So, Swain came east to play for the Bulls after leaving Detroit (Don't know if Detroit released him or he retired). Bill Swain became a close friend of Tucker Frederickson when they were both on the Giants from 1965 through 1967, so maybe Frederickson had something to do with Swain's playing for the 1970 Bulls (told Swain about the opportunity to play, or something like that). I think that Tucker had a lot of clout in the Giants organization.

The other six 1970 Bulls players had more recently played for the Giants, and Ronnie Blye played for a team called the Brooklyn Dodgers before joining the Giants in 1968. Andy Robustelli was the head coach of the Brooklyn Dodgers at the time.

Also, former Giants Freeman White and Gary Wood played for the Ottawa Rough Riders in the Canadian Football League in 1970.

[Mark L. Ford]

I can't remember what year it was (sometime in the late 1960s) that the NFL owners voted to prohibit the league's teams from having working arrangements with clubs at the minor league level, but quite a few of the ACFL teams had ties to nearby NFL franchises-- other examples were the Virginia Sailors, who were the Redskins' farm club, and the Waterbury Orbits and the Bridgeport Jets who had been the New York Jets team. I think the Giants had also had an arrangement with the Long Island predecessor, the Westchester Bulls. I'm surprised, though, at how many former Giants were playing in the ACFL team. Bob Gill (along with Steve Brainerd and Tod Maher) wrote the book on the subject, so one of them would be the one to answer.

[Saban1]

As I was browsing a football website, I came across something that surprised me a little bit. I found a team called the Long Island Bulls in a league called the Atlantic Coast Football League. What surprised me was that there were seven players on that team that were former players on the New York Giants.

I know that there were other football leagues during the 60's and 70's other than the NFL and the AFL, but what surprised me was the number of former Giants players on that one team, and the fact that former Giants safety Allan Webb was the Head Coach. Webb played on those Y.A. Tittle Giants teams.

The former Giants players were LB Bill Swain, RB Ronnie Blye, DE/LB McKinley Boston, DB Al Brenner, LB Ray Hickl, DB Jim Holifield, and DT Tim McCann. I guess that those players either loved playing football or were hoping to play their way back into the NFL. I don't think any of them got back into the NFL.

Bill Swain surprised me the most because he was the starting left linebacker for the Giants in 1967, but was traded to Detroit in 1968 (expendable because the Giants got linebacker Tommy Crutcher in a trade from Green Bay) I think for either safety Bruce Maher or guard Doug Van Horn or both. Don't know of the full details of that trade.

Swain was a veteran who played for the Rams in 1963, Vikings in 1964, Giants in 1965 and 1967 (missed 1966 due to a knee injury) and Detroit in 1968 and 1969. He was a reserve on those teams except for 1967 when he started at left linebacker for the Giants. So, Swain came east to play for the Bulls after leaving Detroit (Don't know if Detroit released him or he retired). Bill Swain became a close friend of Tucker Frederickson when they were both on the Giants from 1965 through 1967, so maybe Frederickson had something to do with Swain's playing for the 1970 Bulls (told Swain about the opportunity to play, or something like that). I think that Tucker had a lot of clout in the Giants organization.

The other six 1970 Bulls players had more recently played for the Giants, and Ronnie Blye played for a team called the Brooklyn Dodgers before joining the Giants in 1968. Andy Robustelli was the head coach of the Brooklyn Dodgers at the time.

Also, former Giants Freeman White and Gary Wood played for the Ottawa Rough Riders in the Canadian Football League in 1970.

Regarding the trade that sent Bill Swain from the Giants to the Detroit Lions in 1968: Fullback Bill Triplett was also sent to Detroit in 1968 from the New York Giants. A third round draft choice went to the Giants from Detroit in 1969.

So if all that was in one trade, then you had Bill Triplett and Bill Swain going to Detroit from New York, and Bruce Maher, Doug Van Horn and a 1969 third round draft choice going to the New York Giants from Detroit.

[Saban1]

I can't remember what year it was (sometime in the late 1960s) that the NFL owners voted to prohibit the league's teams from having working arrangements with clubs at the minor league level, but quite a few of the ACFL teams had ties to nearby NFL franchises-- other examples were the Virginia Sailors, who were the Redskins' farm club, and the Waterbury Orbits and the Bridgeport Jets who had been the New York Jets team. I think the Giants had also had an arrangement with the Long Island predecessor, the Westchester Bulls. I'm surprised, though, at how many former Giants were playing in the ACFL team. Bob Gill (along with Steve Brainerd and Tod Maher) wrote the book on the subject, so one of them would be the one to answer.

Thanks. Another farm club of the Washington Redskins was the Roanoke Buckskins. Fullback Ray McDonald, the first round draft choice of the Redskins in 1967, played for Roanoke in 1970. The Roanoke Buckskins were also in the ACFL (Southern Division).

[Bob Gill]

Another farm club of the Washington Redskins was the Roanoke Buckskins. Fullback Ray McDonald, the first round draft choice of the Redskins in 1967, played for Roanoke in 1970. The Roanoke Buckskins were also in the ACFL (Southern Division).

The Buckskins were the same team as the Virginia Sailors, who Mark already mentioned. From 1966 to '68 the Sailors played in Alexandria, Herndon and one other place, I think, all of which were in suburban Washington; they moved to Roanoke in 1969 and changed the team name.

As for the Long Island Bulls, yes, they had a working agreement with the Giants in 1969, just as they had previously when they played in Mount Vernon and were called the Westchester Bulls. (As I recall, they also played on an artificial turf field in Long Island, which gave them the dubious distinction of being the first minor league team to do so.) It was after the 1969 season that Pete Rozelle banned NFL teams from setting up working agreements with minor league teams -- a move that basically killed the top minors, because the money they got from the big teams covered enough of their almost inevitable losses to keep them afloat. The Continental League folded before the 1970 season started, and after that season all but four of the ACFL teams dropped out.

You're right, though, that a lot of NFL players played in those leagues -- some on their way up to the NFL (like Jeff Van Note and Bob Keuchenberg, to name just two from 1969), and others after a few seasons in the big time. As you said, in some cases the latter group probably had reasonable hopes of being picked up by another NFL team, like Chuck Mercein, who was dropped by the Giants but caught on in the ACFL and was by the Packers late in the 1967 season; others just kept going because they loved to play football, and if they could pick up $100 a game or whatever the going rate was, so much the better.

[Bryan]

It was after the 1969 season that Pete Rozelle banned NFL teams from setting up working agreements with minor league teams -- a move that basically killed the top minors, because the money they got from the big teams covered enough of their almost inevitable losses to keep them afloat.

What was Rozelle's rationale for banning the working agreements?

[rhickok1109]

It was after the 1969 season that Pete Rozelle banned NFL teams from setting up working agreements with minor league teams -- a move that basically killed the top minors, because the money they got from the big teams covered enough of their almost inevitable losses to keep them afloat.

What was Rozelle's rationale for banning the working agreements?

I believe he saw it as a way for well-off teams to stockpile players and keep them away from other teams.

[Shipley]

1970 was the year NFL Films produced a documentary about the ACFL champion Pottstown Firebirds that ran before Super Bowl V. They were also immortalized that season in a book called "The Forgettables." There is a Pottstown Firebirds page on Facebook, and someone has posted an NFL Films documentary known as "Pottstown Revisited," which goes back and interviews several of the players 30 years later. Well worth checking out. At the end of the program, there's a link to the original show someone has posted elsewhere on YouTube. Here's a link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUEMGHbugRE

The Firebirds had an informal relationship with the Eagles, and even wore their old uniforms with the silver pants and helmet insignia. They had several past and future NFL players, most notably WR Jack Dolbin, who went on to play for the Broncos and start for their 1977 Super Bowl team. Other ACFL players who played in the NFL included Bob Tucker (Firebirds/Giants), Otis Sistrunk (Norfolk Neptunes/Oakland Raiders), Marv Hubbard (Hartford Knights/Oakland Raiders), Harry Theofiledes (Bridgeport Jets/Washington Redskins) and numerous others. My father used to coach a team known as the Frederick Falcons, and the Redskins would stash players there. He coached a team called the Hagerstown Bears that had three former and future NFL players, including Theofiledes, Conway Hayman (guard, Houston Oilers) and Duane Carrell (punter, Jets/Rams/Cowboys/Cardinals).

[ChrisBabcock]

At the western New York PFRA get-together last April, Greg Tranter gave a talk on the Hartford franchise of the ACFL and showed some game programs and memorabilia. I'm not sure if Greg is here on the forum. Some pics from last April here....
https://www.facebook.com/events/830271137112571/

[Shipley]

The Hartford Knights played in the Seaboard Football League in 1972, went 14-0 and won the championship. They won the championship game over the Chambersburg Cardinals, which is the team where a bunch of former Pottstown Firebirds landed.