Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good
Gary Najman
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by Gary Najman »

For me, Jackie Smith is a clear HOFamer. He retired as the TE leader in receptions, and his yard per catch was better that many of the top WRs of his era, and also was a great blocker. And I am a Cowboys fan and never blamed him for losing Super Bowl XIII.
JohnTurney
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by JohnTurney »

Teo wrote:For me, Jackie Smith is a clear HOFamer. He retired as the TE leader in receptions, and his yard per catch was better that many of the top WRs of his era, and also was a great blocker. And I am a Cowboys fan and never blamed him for losing Super Bowl XIII.
And some on various lists are clear HOFers to me, too. Not getting into details, but reading other people's views are interesting.

One of my favorite quotes by a writer in one of these articles is, "Statistically, Aikman simply wasn’t a HOF player."

His bio does not give and age but his photo shows he's med-20s at most.

To each his own.
Brian wolf
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by Brian wolf »

Being a Cowboys fan, I have no problem with Aikman being in the HOF because he was big in the postseason. He and Bob Griese were unselfish and put team accomplishments over their numbers. Griese really could have had better passing numbers but felt passing on third down all the time was too predictable and trusted his defense more ...
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GameBeforeTheMoney
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by GameBeforeTheMoney »

Yeah, I generally hesitate to question/challenge HOFs before my time. How good was Walt Keisling (randomly picked name)? It's really difficult to say because none of us actually saw him. I guess if you simply look at a stat sheet, then maybe some unquestionable HOFers (to us) like Troy Aikman might not stand out as much as Favre or Marino if you didn't watch in the 90s. But watching Aikman during his time -- he was as good as it gets. Tough, undeterred. Leader. Played at his highest level or close to it in the vast majority of the most important games of his career. Those are the types of things that, at least to me, those are the things that HOF players do better than the others.

The ingredients that deem a player "great" tend to vary from era to era. Somebody watching pro football in the 1930s or the 1950s is likely to have a different definition of what a great player might look like than someone like me who started watching in the 70s or someone else who started watching 12 years ago.

Now, my only memory of Jackie Smith was the Super Bowl. But I've always thought he must have done something right during his career to be voted in despite one of the most famous drops in the history of the game.

As for Charley Trippi - he apparently could do pretty much anything. Special teams, halfback, quarterback, defensive back. Jim Thorpe called Trippi the greatest football player he ever saw, and well, let's just say there is no higher credibility that I could think of than Jim Thorpe's endorsement.
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JohnTurney
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by JohnTurney »

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote: watching Aikman during his time -- he was as good as it gets. Tough, undeterred. Leader. Played at his highest level or close to it in the vast majority of the most important games of his career. Those are the types of things that, at least to me, those are the things that HOF players do better than the others.
^This :!:
Sonny9
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by Sonny9 »

Brian wolf wrote:The QBs, Warner, Jurgenson, Namath, Griese, Stabler, Fouts, Moon gets a pass because of Canada, were exciting players but very on the fence about being in the HOF ... some are on the fence about Brocklin, Dawson and Aikman as well. No way Blanda makes it without his kicking.
I disagree about Jurgensen.
The top 3 rated QBs when Jurgensen retired were Tarkenton, Staubach, and Jurgensen. Jurgensen may have had the lowest turnovers per game in that era. He rarely fumbled. Six, twice, was his season high.
His coaches when he was a starter
Nick Skorich
Bill McPeak
Otto Graham
then Lombardi for one year
Bill Austin
One of these is different than the others

Pat Peppler on a talk with Lombardi
He said, ‘I’ll tell you something and he said don’t tell anybody or I’ll get you.’ He said, ‘If we would have had Sonny Jurgensen in Green Bay, we’d never have lost a game.’”

On what Lombardi liked about Jurgensen: “Jurgensen had a fire up his (butt). Vince liked the Max McGees and Hornungs. Maybe he was vicariously relating to those people. I know Paul Bixler, who was with Cleveland in the same capacity that I was, had been a coach in that system and he raved about Sonny Jurgensen. They played him twice a year. He said, ‘If you play man-to-man, he’ll beat you. If you play zone, he’ll completely pick you apart.’ He had a good arm and good accuracy.”

Read more: http://www.packers.com/news-and-events/ ... z4VSjfDD8T
Brian wolf
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by Brian wolf »

Thats why I said on the fence with these QBs ... I agree and disagree. I have no problem with any of them being in the HOF, except maybe Warner, who was up and down but understand why he was elected. I still think Thompson, Conerly and Simms belong but they werent the passers or exciting as these other QBs. Everyone likes throwers, I have no problem with that but game managers and field generals who won games by elevating teammates play on both sides of the ball, deserve consideration as well. Jurgensen was talented and had talent around him, even on defense but the team coaching just faltered. Some people felt his statistics were misleading or in garbage time, trying to come back in games but I am not certain because I never saw his games, only great highlights but one thing is for certain whether he won or lost; he was exciting to watch and put fans in the seats and that definitely helps his case.

I sent you a private message about his #9 jersey with the 57 Eagles from ebbets.com ... Are you going to purchase it? I would if it were a Skins jersey but its still hard to do being a former fan of the Cowboys ... haha
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TanksAndSpartans
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by TanksAndSpartans »

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:How good was Walt Keisling (randomly picked name)? It's really difficult to say because none of us actually saw him. I guess if you simply look at a stat sheet...
We are the PFRA where the R stands for research. If we didn't talk about players we never saw play, we'd lose a lot of history as generations die off. It's a big assumption to say those of us commenting in this thread "just looked at a stat sheet". Walt Kiesling is a good example of a player that doing some analysis leads to question marks. He's on the '20s all-decade team, but that seems to be a team back-filled with a lot of coaches. Did the voters in the '60s see any of them play? If they did, several historians don't think they did a great job on that era, but it was more omissions than putting in too many.

I commented on a couple players from the '40s/'50s and one from the '80s. Those eras aren't my speciality, but for the players before my time I've seen footage, I've read a lot, and I'm aware of who their contemporaries were - that's what I considered. I think others did similarly.
GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:As for Charley Trippi - he apparently could do pretty much anything. Special teams, halfback, quarterback, defensive back. Jim Thorpe called Trippi the greatest football player he ever saw, and well, let's just say there is no higher credibility that I could think of than Jim Thorpe's endorsement.
I mentioned Trippi had a great championship game in '47 and that he was versatile, but I don't see him or Canadeo as HOFers. Trippi would be solid HOVG for me, Canadeo less solid. The quote from Thorpe is great, but what's the context? Thorpe wasn't his contemporary as a player or coach. By '47, he wouldn't have had much involvement in pro football at all. When did he see Trippi play?

He had 3 seasons with postseason honors and probably a couple seasons where he was close. He played for a bad Cardinals team in the '50s and they tried hm at QB, but he really didn't excel there. I like Towler better, Hoernschemeyer and probably a few other of his contemporaries who aren't in the HOF.
Sonny9
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by Sonny9 »

Brian wolf wrote:Thats why I said on the fence with these QBs ... I agree and disagree. I have no problem with any of them being in the HOF, except maybe Warner, who was up and down but understand why he was elected. I still think Thompson, Conerly and Simms belong but they werent the passers or exciting as these other QBs. Everyone likes throwers, I have no problem with that but game managers and field generals who won games by elevating teammates play on both sides of the ball, deserve consideration as well. Jurgensen was talented and had talent around him, even on defense but the team coaching just faltered. Some people felt his statistics were misleading or in garbage time, trying to come back in games but I am not certain because I never saw his games, only great highlights but one thing is for certain whether he won or lost; he was exciting to watch and put fans in the seats and that definitely helps his case.

I sent you a private message about his #9 jersey with the 57 Eagles from ebbets.com ... Are you going to purchase it? I would if it were a Skins jersey but its still hard to do being a former fan of the Cowboys ... haha
Never got the message. I love Jurgy but as a diehard Redskins fan, it would be blasphemous to purchase an Eagles jersey.
I agree with you about Warner. His high turnovers are a problem for me. So many fumbles for someone who wasn't a runner and didn't get sacked much.
Brian wolf
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Re: Worst NFL Hall of Famers

Post by Brian wolf »

Its interesting looking at Jurgy's starting record with quality coaching. Of course he had his only 10+ wins in a season in 1961 under first year HC Nick Skorich, who like Weeb Ewbank, had been a quality offensive line coach. Despite the record, the team wasnt able to repeat as champions. After two injury plagued seasons and salary disputes, Jurgy was traded to the Redskins in 1964.

His overrall starting record with both teams was 69-71-7. However, with quality coaches like Lombardi and Allen, his record is 18-7-2 ... not too shabby. So basically under bad coaching, not counting his first season under Skorich or seasons with Lombardi and Allen, his overall record is 41-60-5. Great passer or not, had Lombardi and Allen not been in his corner, he might not have made the HOF. A great case of a player passing the eye test or 'wow' factor.

Some of my friends -- who hated the Redskins and their team history-- believe Jurgensen was overrated and a coach killer but I disagree ... Bad ownership from Marshall to Williams led to bad coaches till Allen righted the ship ...
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