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Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:25 pm
by Eagles One
As far as coaches in general, I am probably more on the conservative side as to who goes in the HOF. To me, you need to win a title to get in. To stress, even accomplishing this does not necessarily mean they get in, however it certainly helps. Players can have outstanding careers without winning titles because the HOF is really about individual stats. Coaches are the ones who assemble their teams and more so now, have input in drafting. So success and failure are mainly on their shoulders. Bud Grant (I am sure his success in the CFL helped) and Marv Levy are charitable cases for them getting in and I have no idea why George Allen is in based on his coaching success. Sid Gillman did win a title in the AFL and is considered an innovative force with the passing game, so I can see why he is in. I was not even on board with Andy Reid getting in until he won with KC. Just my opinion.

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 3:52 pm
by Brian wolf
Youre right Eagle One ... Reeves didnt do much after getting injured. Mostly a player/coach. The Cowboys lost some emphasis on toughness as well, once he left for Denver.

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 10:37 pm
by Brian wolf
With Head Coaches, you want them to win a championship like Shaw, Collier, Vermeil, Reid, Madden, Holmgren and so forth but when they win two and can't get in, you have to wonder why?

Yes, Flores struggled with Seattle and Seifert with Carolina but they also were part of the Raiders and 49ers' success, even before winning as head coaches of those teams. Shanahan as well. He helped the Broncos win AFC championships as well as the 49ers in the NFC, before winning two as a head coach but still can't get voted in. Flores just got voted in and hopefully, Buddy Parker follows him this year. Coughlin may get voted in eventually but also regressed for different teams ...

Allen was a special case because he got voted in as a defensive innovator with a great winning pct as a coach but Coryell and Shaughnessy haven't gotten the same appreciation as offensive innovators. At least Grant, Levy, and Reeves have won multiple conference championships to help their cause. Knox, Schottenheimer and Coryell, consistently won with multiple teams.

Another question is if and when, excellent assistant coaches get recognized by the HOF but it will be a while before the most deserving head coaches are exhausted.

Top 5 Offensive Assistants for the HOF(future)

1) Shaughnessy - if not as a head coach
2) Zampese
3) Gibbs/Houck - offensive line
4) Saunders
5) Moore/Henning - though Henning was a bad HC

Top 5 Defensive Assistants for HOF(future)

1) Arnsparger
2) Ryan/Phillips
3) Carson
4) Sumner
5) Collier

As stated already, enough Head Coaches would have to get voted in or exhausted before career assistants/coordinators start getting voted in but it just depends on when the HOF committees start getting things in motion ...

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:22 pm
by JuggernautJ
Around Ninerland Bobb McKittrick is remembered fondly as one of the best Assistant Coaches of his (and perhaps any other) time. Bobb coached the offensive line for all 5 of the 49ers Super Bowl victories.

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:46 pm
by Brian wolf
Yep, other great line coaches included Jim Hanifan, Nick Scorich, Joe Bugel, Joe Spencer, Monte Clark and Tony Wise

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Mon Jun 07, 2021 11:55 pm
by Brian wolf
On defense, Kiffin, Johnson, and Capers were great as well. LeBeau I believe got in the HOF for his coaching as much as his playing career ...

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Fri Jun 11, 2021 1:09 pm
by 74_75_78_79_
I'm all-in with the idea of Vermeil being inducted into Canton! Pretty much for all reasons already given on these forums!

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:I'm all for Marv Levy being in the Hall simply for his NFL resume.

That said, there's no question Dan Reeves belongs in the HOF, too. The old adage used to be, "Can you tell the history of the game without this guy?" In Reeves case, no. Led the NFL in touchdowns, threw a historic pass in one of the NFL's most historic games, was a player/coach (so, even if people want to split the two, you can make an exception with Reeves). After his playing career he was an assistant with Landry on SB teams, won the AFC Championship Games three out of four years as a head coach...then took Atlanta to the Super Bowl.

And one last important thing to add about Vermeil -- he was the first ever special teams coach in the NFL. Levy was the second, hired the same year by Philadelphia in response to Allen hiring Vermeil in Los Angeles.


Agree! Even if Grant and Levy were better HCs than Dan (which maybe they were, maybe they weren't), the margin is slim enough IMO to rationalize that if both of them are in, then Dan should be in as well. Four SB-berths are four SB-berths, plain and simple. One of Reeves' SBs being with a different franchise (Atlanta's first-ever SB in-particular) has to add a nice wrinkle to his case.


I feel both Vermeil and Reeves are 'even' candidates. Dan with twice as many conference titles, but Vermeil with one Ring which balances it. Maybe I'm wrong to see it that way (or maybe not), but it feels that way with me. Induct them both as soon as possible.

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 1:06 pm
by Eagles One
74_75_78_79_ wrote:I'm all-in with the idea of Vermeil being inducted into Canton! Pretty much for all reasons already given on these forums!

GameBeforeTheMoney wrote:I'm all for Marv Levy being in the Hall simply for his NFL resume.

That said, there's no question Dan Reeves belongs in the HOF, too. The old adage used to be, "Can you tell the history of the game without this guy?" In Reeves case, no. Led the NFL in touchdowns, threw a historic pass in one of the NFL's most historic games, was a player/coach (so, even if people want to split the two, you can make an exception with Reeves). After his playing career he was an assistant with Landry on SB teams, won the AFC Championship Games three out of four years as a head coach...then took Atlanta to the Super Bowl.

And one last important thing to add about Vermeil -- he was the first ever special teams coach in the NFL. Levy was the second, hired the same year by Philadelphia in response to Allen hiring Vermeil in Los Angeles.


Agree! Even if Grant and Levy were better HCs than Dan (which maybe they were, maybe they weren't), the margin is slim enough IMO to rationalize that if both of them are in, then Dan should be in as well. Four SB-berths are four SB-berths, plain and simple. One of Reeves' SBs being with a different franchise (Atlanta's first-ever SB in-particular) has to add a nice wrinkle to his case.


I feel both Vermeil and Reeves are 'even' candidates. Dan with twice as many conference titles, but Vermeil with one Ring which balances it. Maybe I'm wrong to see it that way (or maybe not), but it feels that way with me. Induct them both as soon as possible.


I respectfully disagree. I look at the state of the teams whenever a coach takes over and the players he has to work with. Vermeil took over an Eagles franchise which was 16 years removed from the playoffs and traded away their first round picks for three years. So he had a huge disadvantage. He drafted players like Wilbert Montgomery from lesser collegiate programs and turned the team into playoff contenders. Reeves got to Super Bowls with arguably one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. During Reeves' 7 years as Falcons head coach, he only had 2 winning seasons. Vermeil took a very bad Rams team and turned them into Super Bowl champs in a relatively short time. Kurt Warner was not a household name until Vermeil gave him the chance to play.

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Fri Jun 18, 2021 3:15 pm
by IrishJimmy
Vermeil built the Eagles - with literally nothing in the way of picks. Did not have a 1st rounder until '79. For me getting to the Super Bowl in two different eras 81 and 99 with two different teams speaks volumes.

Re: Dick Vermeil

PostPosted: Sat Jun 19, 2021 5:41 pm
by sluggermatt15
I honestly wonder sometimes why Vermeil is not in the HOF. He has the accolades of other coaches who are in. He's got slightly more than Bill Cowher, who is in the PFHOF. So why not Vermeil? As it was mentioned, he guided three different franchises to the postseason.