2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:39 am

JeffreyMiller wrote:Well, I lobbied for Swede Youngstrom, have voted multiple times for Nesser, Latone, Peggy Parrat, and others. There are several members of the committee who support pre-1950s nominees. However, I think you're correct that there is a tendency toward more modern players. I would guess that the majority of voters are interested in seeing players they actually saw play get voted in .


+1

Totally agree on this. I don't think the committee is biased. I think all the nominees get considered. And just looking at this year, we have a few good pre-war finalists.

Agree about the electorate too. I don't think its some kind of vindictiveness that the results are so predictable, just how people vote. My solution was to have a special committee like the HOF did for the centennial class. Even if its just once every 5 or 10 years to get a few of the early players in. I'm not saying 10 players - I'm thinking more like 3 or 4 per decade. Otherwise its essentially insanity to vote for some of these finalists every year and think this year will be different. Even if Latone turns out to be the Ted Nesser of the 2020s, which he might, its still just 1 player.
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby RyanChristiansen » Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:46 am

TanksAndSpartans wrote:My solution was to have a special committee like the HOF did for the centennial class. Even if its just once every 5 or 10 years to get a few of the early players in. I'm not saying 10 players - I'm thinking more like 3 or 4 per decade. Otherwise its essentially insanity to vote for some of these finalists every year and think this year will be different. Even if Latone turns out to be the Ted Nesser of the 2020s, which he might, its still just 1 player.


I think a tiered vote is a great idea. A PFRA committee could decide what the different tiers should be. (There might be a better division than by decade based on a number of factors, such as major rules changes, etc.) Maybe someone out there has already identified a good set of tiers? Then, the "population" of each tier (the total number of players who played during those years) should be tallied.

When it comes time for the HOVG committee to determine the ballot, the number of players in each tier should be a percentage of the overall population in the tier. That way, no tier is over- or under-represented on a population percentage basis.
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby Reaser » Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:11 pm

JeffreyMiller wrote:Every year someone has a complaint about the process, or someone's favorite hasnt been nominated. Geezer Louise ...


Have to expect that, to some extent. Anytime someone new joins the forum they essentially believe that's the start date of the PFRA. Not just for them, but for everyone.

So besides the 'new' ideas, we also get a lot of "no one has ever talked about or heard about this player that [just joined the forums is going to tell you about]" and those that have been here five years think; "we just talked about that player a couple months ago," those of us that have been here ten years think; "our bi-monthly discussion on this, again" and those that have been here over a decade just don't even respond because they can only give the same response to the same topic so many times. Not to mention the amount of articles and books the collective has researched and written, going back over four decades. The collective amount of film that many of us have watched. The multiple forums (old ones had a lot more discussion) the PFRA has had. And so on.

e.g. Tony Latone isn't new, he wasn't new five years ago. I nominated him in 2012 and I wasn't the first to bring him up on the forum because he wasn't new then, either.
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby Jamie Johnson » Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:48 am

Reaser wrote:
JeffreyMiller wrote:Every year someone has a complaint about the process, or someone's favorite hasnt been nominated. Geezer Louise ...


Have to expect that, to some extent. Anytime someone new joins the forum they essentially believe that's the start date of the PFRA. Not just for them, but for everyone.

So besides the 'new' ideas, we also get a lot of "no one has ever talked about or heard about this player that [just joined the forums is going to tell you about]" and those that have been here five years think; "we just talked about that player a couple months ago," those of us that have been here ten years think; "our bi-monthly discussion on this, again" and those that have been here over a decade just don't even respond because they can only give the same response to the same topic so many times. Not to mention the amount of articles and books the collective has researched and written, going back over four decades. The collective amount of film that many of us have watched. The multiple forums (old ones had a lot more discussion) the PFRA has had. And so on.

e.g. Tony Latone isn't new, he wasn't new five years ago. I nominated him in 2012 and I wasn't the first to bring him up on the forum because he wasn't new then, either.


I'm a new member and I understand where you are coming from. For example, there are two threads about Dick Vermeil in the HOF and HOVG forum that left me thinking, "Hasn't this been discussed already?' Some, not all, newer members do not use the search function. While it is, at least for me, a bit of a hit or miss, I always try to use it. For example, if I type in Tom Landry in search, I do not get a single result. Of course, I know Tom Landry has been discussed numerous times in the past, even if I can't find the threads. When I do find a thread with a topic I'm interested in, but it was last discussed in 2017, I wonder if I should bump it or create a new thread about it.

As for the old forum, is there a link where one can access it?
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby Reaser » Mon Jun 14, 2021 2:38 am

Jamie Johnson wrote:As for the old forum, is there a link where one can access it?


Search: A lot of us have the same issue. It's definitely hit or miss, more miss than hit.

Old Forum: Was a gold mine of information. The things that some think we haven't discussed before here, were a quick search away there. Sadly lost to history. A few people, mainly one person, saved some threads and they were posted here when this version of the forum started. Of course, hard to read a copy/pasted thread posted on a new forum but there was at least some stuff carried over. Good luck finding those via the search function, ha.

The older message board prior to that, I found a few years ago using the "wayback machine" and it had some topics and posts listed but when I clicked on them a majority of the actual posts weren't saved.
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby RyanChristiansen » Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:33 am

Another way to organize the finalists:

OFFENSE

Bert Jones, QB, 1973-1982
Tony Latone, WB/FB, 1925-1930

George Christensen, T, 1931-1938
Grady Alderman, T, 1960-1974 (GM 1981-1982)
Bob Vogel, T, 1963-1972
John Niland, G, 1966-1975
Russ Washington, T, 1968-1982
Jeff Van Note, C, 1969-1986
Mike Kenn, T, 1978-1994

Russ Francis, TE, 1975-1988
Mark Bavaro, TE, 1985-1994

Stanley Morgan, WR, 1977-1990


DEFENSE

Earl Faison, DE, 1961-1966
Bill Stanfill, DE, 1969-1976

Mike Stratton, LB, 1962-1973
Matt Blair, LB, 1974-1985

Otto Schnellbacher, DB, 1948-1951
Abe Woodson, CB, 1958-1966


COACHES

Clark Shaughnessy, Coach, 1947-1962
Buster Ramsey, Coach, 1951-1964 (G 1946-1951)
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby rhickok1109 » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:32 am

A good idea, but Tony Latone shouldn't simply be offense because he was well regarded as a linebacker as well as a fullback.
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby Ken Crippen » Mon Jun 14, 2021 5:04 pm

One good way to raise the attention of your favorite players is to write an article for Coffin Corner. All of the people voting get the Coffin Corner and will read your case for why your favorite players are special.
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby Ronfitch » Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:55 pm

RyanChristiansen wrote:
JeffreyMiller wrote:Every year someone has a complaint about the process, or someone's favorite hasnt been nominated. Geezer Louise ...


The process isn't exactly transparent:

    You submit five names, and maybe you include some justifications for your selection, or maybe you don't, but you don't know whether those justifications make it to the committee or whether they consider them. You don't know whether non-NFL experience counts, or which non-NFL experience counts.

    You submit your five names to the committee, and you know the five names that you submitted, but you don't know the entire list of names that were submitted.

    You don't know how the committee decided which names should appear on the ballot.

    You vote on who should make it into the HOVG and then get the results without knowing how many votes each name received.

This is how I remember the process goes from past years. Am I incorrect about any of this? It's very difficult to search for past threads in this forum, so I might be wrong about something here. It's not a fully democratic process, and it shouldn't be. I agree that a committee is needed as a filter for the process, and I appreciate the work that they do, but it's not exactly fair to complain about complainers when the process is so opaque. In any environment, an opaque process discourages voting.


I did not think to add justifications. I simply sent four names to Andy and he quickly replied that two were already submitted and that I could submit an additional three if I wished. This was the first time I had submitted and had no idea what happened between submission and ballot. Perhaps a primer next year would help?

FWIW, I submitted two pre-1950 players, one of which was already submitted by another member and ultimately made it to the ballot.
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Re: 2021 Hall of Very Good Finalists

Postby TanksAndSpartans » Mon Jun 14, 2021 11:29 pm

I've never submitted justification either. I usually include the seasons the player played next to their name to give context. Judging from the thread in the other section, its probably not the time for justification when the committee has to potentially rank several hundred players. Writing an article like Ken said or posting on the board I think are good ideas.
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