Question on early Buffalo teams

Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby Wendell02 » Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:59 pm

Are the All-Americans (1920-1923), the Bisons (1924-1925) and the 1926 Rangers the same team, or are they different?
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby JeffreyMiller » Fri Oct 22, 2021 6:47 am

Yes, but the ownership kept changing over time. Frank McNeil was the principal owner 1920-23, Warren Patterson et al took over in 1924 for a couple of seasons, then Ray Weil
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby Wendell02 » Fri Oct 22, 2021 4:44 pm

Thanks!
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby lastcat3 » Sat Oct 23, 2021 12:33 pm

It's interesting to follow some of the pre-AFL franchises histories. One that I find most interesting is the Colts. I'm sure everyone on this board knows this but probably 99% of people would assume that the current Colts franchise is the same one that originally came from the AAFC and not the original Dallas Texans (who also were an earlier team than the Texans that eventually became the Chiefs).
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby JuggernautJ » Sat Oct 23, 2021 2:51 pm

lastcat3 wrote:It's interesting to follow some of the pre-AFL franchises histories. One that I find most interesting is the Colts. I'm sure everyone on this board knows this but probably 99% of people would assume that the current Colts franchise is the same one that originally came from the AAFC and not the original Dallas Texans (who also were an earlier team than the Texans that eventually became the Chiefs).


Well, actually... according to Bob Carroll, they're not...

Baltimore Colts I (1947-49 AAFC, 1950 NFL). End NFL franchise.
Dallas Texans (1952). End NFL franchise. Team played out of Hershey, Pa., for final five games.
Baltimore Colts II (1953-1983), Indianapolis Colts (1984- on). Franchise still active.

Checkout the rather fun and informative article starting on page 10:
https://www.profootballresearchers.org/ ... C-31-6.pdf

(In a nutshell, the history of teams is based on the history of franchises and the Dallas Texans were the last NFL team to fold (return its franchise to the league). The Baltimore Colts were awarded an new franchise and so aren't a continuation of the Dallas Texans)
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby rhickok1109 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 11:32 am

JuggernautJ wrote:
lastcat3 wrote:It's interesting to follow some of the pre-AFL franchises histories. One that I find most interesting is the Colts. I'm sure everyone on this board knows this but probably 99% of people would assume that the current Colts franchise is the same one that originally came from the AAFC and not the original Dallas Texans (who also were an earlier team than the Texans that eventually became the Chiefs).


Well, actually... according to Bob Carroll, they're not...

Baltimore Colts I (1947-49 AAFC, 1950 NFL). End NFL franchise.
Dallas Texans (1952). End NFL franchise. Team played out of Hershey, Pa., for final five games.
Baltimore Colts II (1953-1983), Indianapolis Colts (1984- on). Franchise still active.

Checkout the rather fun and informative article starting on page 10:
https://www.profootballresearchers.org/ ... C-31-6.pdf

(In a nutshell, the history of teams is based on the history of franchises and the Dallas Texans were the last NFL team to fold (return its franchise to the league). The Baltimore Colts were awarded an new franchise and so aren't a continuation of the Dallas Texans)

While I agree with Bob Carroll's assessment, it should be noted that the Texans' assets, including its players, were awarded to the new Baltimore franchise. I believe about 20 former Dallas players were on Colts' firsr roster.
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby lastcat3 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:41 pm

I understand Bob's point of view. However when a new team forms that has many of the same players that the team that folded did that by and large is the same team.
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby JohnR » Tue Oct 26, 2021 7:27 pm

Could the '51 Yanks and '52 Texans be considered the same franchise? Jimmy Phelan coached both teams and the unis were (outside of a patch on the Texan's sleeve) identical.
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby JuggernautJ » Wed Oct 27, 2021 3:38 am

JohnR wrote:Could the '51 Yanks and '52 Texans be considered the same franchise? Jimmy Phelan coached both teams and the unis were (outside of a patch on the Texan's sleeve) identical.


That is also discussed in the Coffin Corner linked above.
Bob Carroll's opinion is that the history of teams is dictated by franchises.
As the Texans were awarded a new franchise in 1952 they are a stand-alone entity.

"Collins'...Yanks collapsed in 1951 and Ted decided enough was
enough ... He sold his franchise back to the league for $100,000.
THAT was the end of the Bulldogs-Yanks. "
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Re: Question on early Buffalo teams

Postby Jay Z » Wed Oct 27, 2021 10:03 am

In terms of players the 1950-51 Yanks, 1952 Texans, and 1953 Colts were all the same team, same players. 1951 and 1952 teams had the same coach.

The only thing involving players there that I saw rescinded was that the 1952 Texans traded away their 1953 #5 draft choice to the Browns. This was given back to them as part of the move. The Browns also kept a #5 pick, so there were 13 picks in the 1953 5th round draft.

I am not a big fan of the fidelity to the franchise piece of paper either, but this franchise gets problematic as you go back a bit.

If you had some George Blanda that played decades through all of this franchise's teams, he's more likely to come from the Brooklyn Dodgers than the Boston Yanks.

I don't know how the Dodgers' franchise officially ended. They merged in 1945 with the Boston Yanks. This was a wartime deal, as had been done with other teams in 1943 and 1944. In 1946 the Dodgers just didn't bother to come back, because owner Dan Topping opted to get a new franchise in the AAFC, the New York Yankees. (There was also an unrelated Brooklyn Dodgers AAFC franchise.) Most of the best old Brooklyn Dodgers NFL players went to the AAFC Yankees, not the NFL Boston Yanks.

In 1949 the AAFC Yankees and AAFC Dodgers merged, with the team remaining the Yankees, and most of the best players still coming from the Yankees. The AAFC Brown, 49ers, and Colts came into the AFL. The Dons and Hornets were disbanded and dispersed into an allocation draft. Most of the Bisons were as well, though a few went to the Browns, as the Bisons owner got a part ownership in the Browns.

The AAFC Yankees were not dispersed. The Giants were allowed to take six players from the Yankees, and the rest merged with the NFL NY Bulldogs. The Bulldogs were also required to throw a few players into the AAFC allocation draft as part of this. Most of the best 1950 New York Yanks came from the AAFC Yankees.

So the mythical George Blanda's franchise trip is going to be

Brooklyn NFL
New York AAFC
New York Yanks NFL
Dallas Texas NFL
New Baltimore Colts NFL

There were some AAFC Yankees that made it to the new Colts. I don't think anyone from the Boston Yanks/NY Bulldogs made it.

To complicate things further, the Indianapolis Colts recognize the 1947-1950 Colts as part of their history. Even though it's a different franchise, and the team is no longer in Baltimore. I guess the 1947-1950 Colts "inspired" the new Colts, and that's what people wanted to remember, rather than the crappy vagabond team that was the source of their players.
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