Professional Football Researchers Association Forum

Offensive tackle finalists
Bob "The Boomer" Brown (1964-1973)
Roosevelt Brown (1953-1965)
Lou Creekmur (1950-1959)
Dan Dierdorf (1971-1983)
Forrest Gregg (1956; 1958-1971)
Cal Hubbard (1927-1933; 1935-1936)
Walter Jones (1997-2008)
Ron Mix (1960-1969; 1971)
Anthony Munoz (1980-1992)
Jonathan Ogden (1996-2007)
Orlando Pace (1997-2009)
Willie Roaf (1993-2005)
Art Shell (1968-1982)
Bob St. Clair (1953-1963)
Joe Thomas (2007-2017)
Ron Yary (1968-1982)

Guard finalists
Larry Allen (1994-2007)
Joe DeLamielleure (1973-1985)
Dan Fortmann (1936-1943)
John Hannah (1973-1985)
Jerry Kramer (1958-1968)
Larry Little (1967-1980)
Tom Mack (1966-1978)
Bruce Matthews (1983-2001)
Randall McDaniel (1988-2001)
Mike Michalske (1926-1935; 1937)
Mike Munchak (1982-1993)
Jim Parker (1957-1967)
Will Shields (1993-2006)
Dick Stanfel (1952-1958)
Gene Upshaw (1967-1981)


Center finalists
Dermontti Dawson (1988-2000)
Mel Hein (1931-1945)
Jim Langer (1970-1981)
Jim Otto (1960-1974)
Jim Ringo (1953-1967)
Dwight Stephenson (1980-1987)
Mick Tingelhoff (1962-1978)
Clyde "Bulldog" Turner (1940-1952)
Mike Webster (1974-1990)

This is really an interesting list, IMO.

More so than most of the early releases, balloters seem to be leaning to the past.

Hardly any active players among the group of linemen.

Is this an indictment of the modern game, or the fact that linemen don't have any stats that can quantify them as being better than those previously who played?

JohnTurney wrote:Offensive tackle finalists
Ron Mix (1960-1969; 1971)
Anthony Munoz (1980-1992)
Jonathan Ogden (1996-2007)
Art Shell (1968-1982)
Joe Thomas (2007-2017)


Guard finalists
Larry Allen (1994-2007)
Dan Fortmann (1936-1943)
John Hannah (1973-1985)
Mike Michalske (1926-1935; 1937)
Jim Parker (1957-1967)


Center finalists
Mel Hein (1931-1945)
Dwight Stephenson (1980-1987)
Mike Webster (1974-1990)

I don't know how many guys get picked for each spot, but here is who I would highlight.

wtgriffin59 wrote:This is really an interesting list, IMO.

More so than most of the early releases, balloters seem to be leaning to the past.

Hardly any active players among the group of linemen.

Is this an indictment of the modern game, or the fact that linemen don't have any stats that can quantify them as being better than those previously who played?

Last question is interesting. What is the PFRA community's preferred method of analyzing OL?

Offensive tackle finalists --
Roosevelt Brown (1953-1965)
Forrest Gregg (1956; 1958-1971)
Cal Hubbard (1927-36)
Walter Jones (1997-2008)
Anthony Munoz (1980-1992)
Jonathan Ogden (1996-2007)
Art Shell (1968-1982) Dan Dierdorf > Shell Maybe Boomer Brown, too


Guard finalists
Larry Allen (1994-2007)
Dan Fortmann (1936-1943)
John Hannah (1973-1985)
Bruce Matthews (1983-2001)
Randall McDaniel (1988-2001)
Jim Parker (1957-1967)
Gene Upshaw (1967-1981) Bad pick — DeLamielleure, Little, Kramer all better


Center finalists—They nailed it, I think
Mel Hein (1931-1945)
Jim Otto (1960-1974)
Dwight Stephenson (1980-1987)
Mike Webster (1974-1990)

Very happy to see Cal Hubbard, Dan Fortmann and Mel Hein remembered!!
Likewise Jim Parker and Jim Otto.

I bow to John's superior wisdom (and studying) but am surprised to see Dierdorf so high in his estimation.
So, I have to ask, what made Dierdorf so great?

JuggernautJ wrote:Very happy to see Cal Hubbard, Dan Fortmann and Mel Hein remembered!!
Likewise Jim Parker and Jim Otto.

I bow to John's superior wisdom (and studying) but am surprised to see Dierdorf so high in his estimation.
So, I have to ask, what made Dierdorf so great?

Smart, strong, nasty. Better balance and recovery on short set.

Proscout, Inc grades higher (higher peak) for Dierdorf.
Shell has the "rings" on his side 3-0

But in basic honors and the OL of year awards, Dierdorf
ranks higher. Not 100% on everything, Shell wins Pro Bowls
for example---but in general Dierdorf > Shell

But Dierdorf got hurt more, and knees went on him,
so Shell more longevity.

Dierdorf got a bad rap, I think, because he may have
annoyed people on MNF

But he was the best tackle of the 1970s. Rayfield
Wright 2nd, IMO, then Yary and Shell and Kunz

Wright, IMO > Shell, too

But obviously the blue ribbon committee's opinion counts, not mine

JohnTurney wrote:Offensive tackle finalists --
Roosevelt Brown (1953-1965)
Forrest Gregg (1956; 1958-1971)
Cal Hubbard (1927-36)
Walter Jones (1997-2008)
Anthony Munoz (1980-1992)
Jonathan Ogden (1996-2007)
Art Shell (1968-1982) Dan Dierdorf > Shell Maybe Boomer Brown, too


Guard finalists
Larry Allen (1994-2007)
Dan Fortmann (1936-1943)
John Hannah (1973-1985)
Bruce Matthews (1983-2001)
Randall McDaniel (1988-2001)
Jim Parker (1957-1967)
Gene Upshaw (1967-1981) Bad pick — DeLamielleure, Little, Kramer all better


Center finalists—They nailed it, I think
Mel Hein (1931-1945)
Jim Otto (1960-1974)
Dwight Stephenson (1980-1987)
Mike Webster (1974-1990)

Someone doesn't like the Raiders.

No problem with any of the picks here. Only change I would make is Orlando Pace over Ogden. Possibly the best performance by the committee so far.

JameisLoseston wrote: Someone doesn't like the Raiders.

I suppose you are referring to me. And exactly what evidence is there that I don't like
the Raiders? I like them fine. No hate at all. However, just because Lechler, Upshaw
and Shell are overrated in my view, being Raiders have nothing to do with it.

However, there may be some bias on these committees. John Madden, Art Shell, and
Ron Wolf are all on the 26 member committee.

Maybe these three votes tilt some things, the players on the bubble one way or another.

But if I think Howie Long (along with a few others)> Doug Atkins, of if I think
Charles Woodson > Darrell Green and should have been on NFL100 over Green.

I think it's pretty clear I don't have any anti-Raider bias. I list the guys I think
are the best, based on criteria I think is important and they happen to have
two OLmen that are overrated by fans and media.

JohnTurney wrote:

JameisLoseston wrote: Someone doesn't like the Raiders.

I suppose you are referring to me. And exactly what evidence is there that I don't like
the Raiders? I like them fine. No hate at all. However, just because Lechler, Upshaw
and Shell are overrated in my view, being Raiders have nothing to do with it.

However, there may be some bias on these committees. John Madden, Art Shell, and
Ron Wolf are all on the 26 member committee.

Maybe these three votes tilt some things, the players on the bubble one way or another.

But if I think Howie Long (along with a few others)> Doug Atkins, of if I think
Charles Woodson > Darrell Green and should have been on NFL100 over Green.

I think it's pretty clear I don't have any anti-Raider bias. I list the guys I think
are the best, based on criteria I think is important and they happen to have
two OLmen that are overrated by fans and media.

I was pretty much joking, just noticed the trend. Shell and Upshaw were on almost all projected teams, though, so it seemed weird you'd call them out and only them. Like Green, I think they were pretty much expected by the media to make it, and media expectations probably determine these picks more than anything else.