AD's first 5 years matched with Sapp's last 8 years
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:06 am
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Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
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ADs first 5 matched with Randles last 9
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:11 am
Re: Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 10:29 am
I continue to be confused about why Warren Sapp was a first-ballot guy. I'm hoping that with the 100'th class Alex Karras who was similar but better gets in.
On Lilly, Olsen, Greene, Page and Donald; for highest PEAK I'd probably go 1.) Greene, 2.) Donald, 3.) Lilly, 4.) Olsen, 5.) Page. But Greene just wasn't the same after his back injury and the second half of his career was really down. If Donald has an injury free career the length of the Rushmore guys I think he will leapfrog at least Page, but who knows, predictions are difficult, particularly when they're about the future!
On Lilly, Olsen, Greene, Page and Donald; for highest PEAK I'd probably go 1.) Greene, 2.) Donald, 3.) Lilly, 4.) Olsen, 5.) Page. But Greene just wasn't the same after his back injury and the second half of his career was really down. If Donald has an injury free career the length of the Rushmore guys I think he will leapfrog at least Page, but who knows, predictions are difficult, particularly when they're about the future!
Re: Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:26 am
Agreed...and he was on same ballot as Strahan and the "DL slot" as it were went to Sapp. Why? I am told it was becuase Sapp was All-Decade twice. However, the details matter. He was 2nd team in 1990s....and really, looking at his numbers maybe should have been 2nd team for the 2000s.NWebster wrote:I continue to be confused about why Warren Sapp was a first-ballot guy.
to be fair, I'd put him 1st team from 1995-05
But that was, to me, an error, putting in Sapp over Stahan right away
Re: Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:32 am
For me, peak is 1. Lilly 2. Greene 3. Donald 4. Page 5. Olsen, but yours certainly every bit as valid. In some ways, it's possible that Donald's "peak" may already be #1 and we doing an anti-recency bias or "golden age thinking" bias, thinking the older era is better.NWebster wrote:
On Lilly, Olsen, Greene, Page and Donald; for highest PEAK I'd probably go 1.) Greene, 2.) Donald, 3.) Lilly, 4.) Olsen, 5.) Page.
Eye test--Donald is as good as anyone I've seen, right there with Lilly and Greene. No one is more slippery and no one has the combination of strength and quickness and had usage.
Career 1. Lilly 2 Greene, 3 Olsen, 4 Page, 5 White 6 Nomellini 7 Donald ---but after 2019 and if 2019 is All-Pro, may have to vault Donald to #6. If it's a near DPOY---may have to got 5.
Like Watt, Donald is special and we're lucky to see them in their prime...
Re: Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:43 pm
I think both Ernie Stautner and Art Donovan benefit somewhat from the "golden age bias". Having watched both on film they just don't pop off the screen the way that Weinmeister or even Nomellini do. Bill Willis is just so different from these guys. But Stautner can get manhandled by blockers and has trouble getting off blocks, didn't have the strength on Leo or quickness of Arnie. Lost is how much of a rotational player Art was in the late 50's, in '58 and '59 he and Lipscomb both played only 2/3 of the snaps, with Ray Krouse subbing in and playing 2/3 of the snaps himself by replacing Art 1/3 of the series and Gene on 1/3 of his. By 1960 he graded out at 79.2 by the coaches while Billy Ray Smith was 87.8 at the other tackle, he was really done, but played one more tailing off season in 1961.JohnTurney wrote:For me, peak is 1. Lilly 2. Greene 3. Donald 4. Page 5. Olsen, but yours certainly every bit as valid. In some ways, it's possible that Donald's "peak" may already be #1 and we doing an anti-recency bias or "golden age thinking" bias, thinking the older era is better.NWebster wrote:
On Lilly, Olsen, Greene, Page and Donald; for highest PEAK I'd probably go 1.) Greene, 2.) Donald, 3.) Lilly, 4.) Olsen, 5.) Page.
Of the primarily 50's guys I'd rank them Nomellini, Weinmeister, Donovan, Stautner. I think on peak it's Weinmeister but Nomellini gets credit for playing the entire decade.
Re: Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:53 pm
I never understood why Karras has always been passed over, especially since they let Hornung into the HOF and both were banned for gambling in 1963. Alex Karras is one wrong that I hope they make right in the 2020 class and enshrine him in Canton.NWebster wrote:I continue to be confused about why Warren Sapp was a first-ballot guy. I'm hoping that with the 100'th class Alex Karras who was similar but better gets in.
On Lilly, Olsen, Greene, Page and Donald; for highest PEAK I'd probably go 1.) Greene, 2.) Donald, 3.) Lilly, 4.) Olsen, 5.) Page. But Greene just wasn't the same after his back injury and the second half of his career was really down. If Donald has an injury free career the length of the Rushmore guys I think he will leapfrog at least Page, but who knows, predictions are difficult, particularly when they're about the future!
Re: Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:46 pm
FWIW, I've heard that Hornung got a pass because he publicly owned up to gambling on NFL football while Karras didn't. Not sure if that's true or not.Rupert Patrick wrote:I never understood why Karras has always been passed over, especially since they let Hornung into the HOF and both were banned for gambling in 1963. Alex Karras is one wrong that I hope they make right in the 2020 class and enshrine him in Canton.
There could also be the skill vs. non-skill position issue or the rings vs. non-rings issue. As it was, Hornung took 13 tries as finalist before getting in, which is one of the longest such waits for a regular candidate.
Re: Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
Posted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 4:50 pm
I still can't figure out how and why Sapp is in the Hall. Never thought he was Hall worthy or even Hall of Very Good worthy. Maybe it's just me, I don't know.NWebster wrote:I continue to be confused about why Warren Sapp was a first-ballot guy. I'm hoping that with the 100'th class Alex Karras who was similar but better gets in.
Re: Aaron Donald's place in the pantheon
Posted: Sat Aug 24, 2019 8:49 am
James wrote:I still can't figure out how and why Sapp is in the Hall. Never thought he was Hall worthy or even Hall of Very Good worthy. Maybe it's just me, I don't know.NWebster wrote:I continue to be confused about why Warren Sapp was a first-ballot guy. I'm hoping that with the 100'th class Alex Karras who was similar but better gets in.