Professional Football Researchers Association Forum
PFRA is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the history of professional football. Formed in 1979, PFRA members include many of the game's foremost historians and writers.
Citizen wrote:
As for Green Bay's 1969 season providing cause for optimism, in retrospect their winning record was a bit of a mirage. They won three games against Chicago and Pittsburgh (2-26 combined) and five others against losing teams. Their record against winning teams was 1-6.
The '69 season wasn't necessarily cause for optimism but the team was still respectable. I don't think the record was a mirage at all. They beat the teams they were better than and lost to the teams better than them. Their defense was still strong and the offense mediocre. Horn's terrific 5 TD 410 yard performance against the Cardinals in the season finale would have been the main cause for optimism.
Horn also played very well in the last game of the 1968 season when he helped prevent the Bears from winning the Central Division by beating them 28-27. I remember my dad being quite excited after watching a QB with our somewhat uncommon last name, and who we hadn't previously heard of, play an excellent game. I don't know if pops realized it at the time he watched that game but that Packer win also paved the way for our Vikings to win their first division title.
Bryan wrote:The 1968 Packers might have missed Don Chandler more than Vince Lombardi.
Absolutely. Lombardi was the Packer GM in 1968. With so many over 30 players, they probably wouldn't have done much better with Lombardi still the head coach.
I wouldn't bet on that. George Allen had a fair amount of success with the Over the Hill Gang so I don't doubt that Lombardi could have squeezed two more wins out of the 1968 Pack to win the division. They did rebound somewhat to an 8-6 record in '69 so they weren't completely washed up.
Don Horn (no relation) played very well in relief of Bart during that 1969 season but he was never effective again, playing terribly in 1970 and then in 1971 with Denver. He hung around for a few more years never again throwing more than 8 passes in a season. I believe he may have suffered an arm injury at some point which derailed his promising career. Can anyone confirm that?
Maybe Lombardi goes 8-6 or 7-6-1 and loses to Baltimore in the first playoff game. This would be something of a drop-off.
JohnH19 wrote:He may also have led them to a better record but we'll never know. I would never underestimate St. Vincent, though.
He wasn't really St. Vincent yet, but NFL Films was working on it. They and the NFL decided to canonize him after his death.
Funny thing, St. Vincent was enraged at Jim Taylor for playing out his option and leaving Green Bay for more money. In Larry Felser's 2008 book, "The birth of The New NFL," pages 109-111. Felser wrote: "Lombardi would leave the Packers three years later to coach the Redskins, receiving part ownership in the franchise. In Green Bay, the word HYPOCRITE was used to describe the once-hallowed coach."
Weren't Grabowski and Anderson super-hyped to carry the load to continue the Packer dynasty? I thought it was considered a huge coup that Lombardi signed both before he left.
Anybody ever seen a picture of Errol Mann on the 1968 Packers? Just wondering if one exists.
Was the Monday performance at Dallas one of Bart Starr's best ever? Cowboys come in 6-0 on the year (average margin of victory was 25 points in those first six wins), and get off to a 10-0 lead before Starr throws 4 TD passes in a 28-17 win. I'm guessing that game was a night game, but I assume it was not nationally televised. Anybody able to confirm those details?
I believe it was the Packers' season-ending win over the Bears (after nearly blowing a 28-10 lead) that gave the Vikings the division title. I remember reading a story that Bud Grant was listening to the game on the radio, carefully tossing a roll of tape in the air, over and over. He tossed it the exact same height every time, just a few feet up, (the man had great hand coordination that got him to the NFL as a WR and the NBA too), until Ray Nitschke made a game-sealing interception and then the tape hit the ceiling. Anybody else hear that story too?
Yes, Anderson and Grabowski were "super-hyped" to succeed Hornung and Taylor. Drafting and signing them was supposedly an indication of Lombardi's "genius."
Grabowksi tore ligaments in his knee in 1967 and was never the same again. The jury is still out as to how good he might have been. The surgery techniques were just not there in 1967 and there were numerous careers that were ruined that would have been saved today.
Apbaball wrote:Grabowksi tore ligaments in his knee in 1967 and was never the same again. The jury is still out as to how good he might have been. The surgery techniques were just not there in 1967 and there were numerous careers that were ruined that would have been saved today.
I don't think Grabowski ever would have replaced Taylor's production. He was a plodding runner with little explosion or elusiveness. Donny Anderson was a nice all-around player who was more of an intelligent runner than a size/speed guy. A very good #2 RB but not really a good #1 RB. I don't think his body could withstand many 200+ carry seasons.
I've seen footage of Grabowski writhing in pain inside the Ice Bowl sideline tent...I assume he tried to warm up before the game, slipped on the ice, and reinjured his knee. Does anyone have the story behind this? Did the Packers actually try to have Grabowski play in the Ice Bowl?
JohnH19 wrote:He may also have led them to a better record but we'll never know. I would never underestimate St. Vincent, though.
He wasn't really St. Vincent yet, but NFL Films was working on it. They and the NFL decided to canonize him after his death.
Funny thing, St. Vincent was enraged at Jim Taylor for playing out his option and leaving Green Bay for more money. In Larry Felser's 2008 book, "The birth of The New NFL," pages 109-111. Felser wrote: "Lombardi would leave the Packers three years later to coach the Redskins, receiving part ownership in the franchise. In Green Bay, the word HYPOCRITE was used to describe the once-hallowed coach."
This is the sort of thing that no responsible writer would ever put on paper. I'm sure there were some Packer fans who called Lombardi a hypocrite, but it was a very small minority. In fact, after Lombardi announced that he was leaving for Washington, Green Bay gave him an enormous farewell banquet at which a large number of people praised him for what he had accomplished.
There were a lot of people who didn't like Lombardi as a person (including my father, who regarded him as a devious egoist), but most of them nevertheless recognized him as the man who had not only restored the team to its former glory but had also saved the franchise for Green Bay.
Bryan wrote:I've seen footage of Grabowski writhing in pain inside the Ice Bowl sideline tent...I assume he tried to warm up before the game, slipped on the ice, and reinjured his knee. Does anyone have the story behind this? Did the Packers actually try to have Grabowski play in the Ice Bowl?
He did hurt himself during warm-ups (not sure if he slipped or not), and that's why Chuck Mercein played instead. Might have been a much different game if Grabowski had tried to tough it out.
It's funny you bring this up since Grabowski customarily signs autographs with the notation "Ice Bowl 12-31-67," even though he didn't play in the game.
Apbaball wrote:Grabowksi tore ligaments in his knee in 1967 and was never the same again. The jury is still out as to how good he might have been. The surgery techniques were just not there in 1967 and there were numerous careers that were ruined that would have been saved today.
I don't think Grabowski ever would have replaced Taylor's production. He was a plodding runner with little explosion or elusiveness. Donny Anderson was a nice all-around player who was more of an intelligent runner than a size/speed guy. A very good #2 RB but not really a good #1 RB. I don't think his body could withstand many 200+ carry seasons.
I've seen footage of Grabowski writhing in pain inside the Ice Bowl sideline tent...I assume he tried to warm up before the game, slipped on the ice, and reinjured his knee. Does anyone have the story behind this? Did the Packers actually try to have Grabowski play in the Ice Bowl?
In the 1967 Packer highlight film and the America's Game episode on the 1967 Packers, Grabowski looks stiff prior to his injury. He didn't have Jim Taylor's running ability. Compare Grabowski in 1967 with the Jim Taylor of 1960-62.
Last edited by SixtiesFan on Tue Oct 21, 2014 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
JohnH19 wrote:He may also have led them to a better record but we'll never know. I would never underestimate St. Vincent, though.
He wasn't really St. Vincent yet, but NFL Films was working on it. They and the NFL decided to canonize him after his death.
Funny thing, St. Vincent was enraged at Jim Taylor for playing out his option and leaving Green Bay for more money. In Larry Felser's 2008 book, "The birth of The New NFL," pages 109-111. Felser wrote: "Lombardi would leave the Packers three years later to coach the Redskins, receiving part ownership in the franchise. In Green Bay, the word HYPOCRITE was used to describe the once-hallowed coach."
This is the sort of thing that no responsible writer would ever put on paper. I'm sure there were some Packer fans who called Lombardi a hypocrite, but it was a very small minority. In fact, after Lombardi announced that he was leaving for Washington, Green Bay gave him an enormous farewell banquet at which a large number of people praised him for what he had accomplished.
There were a lot of people who didn't like Lombardi as a person (including my father, who regarded him as a devious egoist), but most of them nevertheless recognized him as the man who had not only restored the team to its former glory but had also saved the franchise for Green Bay.
There were several myths about Lombardi in the 1960's, which his recent biographers have debunked. I saw articles stating Lombardi had a law degree from Fordham but didn't use it, preferring coaching instead. In a 1959 SI piece, Tex Maule wrote that Lombardi "put his law degree in a drawer." Lombardi allowed this to be accepted for years.
Let's see now, does a man in the 1930's graduate from Fordham Law School and decide instead to teach chemistry and coach at a high school? In fact, Lombardi dropped out of Fordham Law School after a semester as David Maraniss reported in his book.
I agree with your father's opinion of Lombardi as "a devious egoist."
