Cam Newton

Discuss candidates for the Pro Football Hall of Fame and the PFRA's Hall of Very Good

Cam Newton

Postby JameisLoseston » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:22 pm

Very possible he's done at this point, at least as a productive starter. Sad to see him go, was one of the most unique players of this decade. Does he have a HOF case, if not, HOVG? Or prime just not long enough for a QB? It doesn't seem like Michael Vick is up for HOF anytime soon, for instance.
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby JuggernautJ » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:26 pm

It would be a predictable shame if Cam's career were near the end of the line.
Injuries just take such a toll on running QBs...
That is why, as much fun as it is to watch, I am skeptical of the "Greg Roman" offense, which requires a running quarterback.

Re: Mike Vick: Depending on who else was on the ballot I might vote for him for the Ho(t)VG (and you could too, once you join up :) ) but there are a lot of dog lovers in America....
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby Rupert Patrick » Sat Nov 09, 2019 3:16 am

JameisLoseston wrote:Very possible he's done at this point, at least as a productive starter. Sad to see him go, was one of the most unique players of this decade. Does he have a HOF case, if not, HOVG? Or prime just not long enough for a QB? It doesn't seem like Michael Vick is up for HOF anytime soon, for instance.


For Newton, I would say no, and no. He had one big season, other than that MVP season of 2015, his career high in TD passes is 24, only threw for 4,000 yards once in his rookie season although being very healthy until 2019 (only missing eight starts in six seasons, never more than two starts in a season). Except for 2015, his career W-L record as a starter is 53-54-1 in the regular season.

As an animal lover, I could not set my feelings aside and vote for Vick.
"Every time you lose, you die a little bit. You die inside. Not all your organs, maybe just your liver." - George Allen
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby bachslunch » Sat Nov 09, 2019 5:45 am

Cam Newton’s definitely not a HoFer as of now. He had one great year (2015j, four years that were varying degrees of very good (2011-2013 and 2018), three just okay years (2014 and 2016-2017), and one where he barely played (2019). By QB standards, his career is short, which doesn’t help. Not so sure it’s even HoVG territory, but perhaps.

Michael Vick is no HoFer, either, and probably nor HoVG either.
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby conace21 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 10:37 am

Right now, Newton and Vick are both no for the HOVG.
Newton has a chance to get there, depending on where his career goes from here. When all is said and done, he does have an MVP season in the books, so he was the best in the league for a season at least.

Vick was flashy and exciting, but never really great, save the 2010 season for Philadelphia. I wouldn't hold his off-field activities against him for several reasons.
1 - Jim Tyrer was elected to the HOVG several years ago.
2 - Vick has shown actual remorse for his deeds and become an animal rights advocate.
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby sluggermatt15 » Sat Nov 09, 2019 4:30 pm

Newton isn't done yet. He may come back next year, not sure. But if it in fact is:

3 Pro Bowls, 1 x 1st Team All-Pro, rookie of the year and offensive player of the year, and an MVP... all impressive, but I don't think that makes him one of the greatest QBs ever, so not PF HOF material, in my eyes. Newton is, one of the best scrambling/hard to bring down QBs who is 6'5" or taller, in football history.

HOVG he might have a tall task to earn election. Cam's thrown over 30 TDs in just one season, and hasn't cracked 30,000 career passing yards. And pointed out above, the rest of his seasons are good, statistically, but not great or overly impressive.

Here are a couple of points.

1. We were all talking about Andrew Luck for PFHOF and HOVG. Where is Newton in comparison to Luck? I'd imagine at least some would think he's ahead of Luck.. and some were stating Luck should be HOVG. Well, if Newton's ahead of Luck, then he ought to be HOVG if Luck is enshrined.

2. An interesting comparison for Newton might be Phil Simms. Newton has more credentials, though Simms won two Super Bowls. Newton's numbers are also slightly better. Simms was on the HOVG final ballot this year and was not elected. So, where would Newton be compared to Simms? Again, if he's ahead of Simms, and Simms was close to earning election, then logic says Newton might get it.
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby JameisLoseston » Sat Nov 09, 2019 9:24 pm

A couple counter-points:

2015 was Newton's biggest statistical year, but one could argue it's not even his greatest, because in the context of rookie QB seasons his 2011 was utterly historic. I'd give him credit for two truly great seasons.

Second, we can all agree the HOF is terrible beyond terrible at picking QBs, so using "one of the greatest QBs ever" as the HOF criterion is completely fallacious. At lest a few HOF QBs would be quite tough sells for HOVG (which has been mostly excellent at picking QBs), something that no other position can come close to saying. So while we may know better re: Newton, there's no telling whether the fools who inducted Troy Aikman first-ballot will. It's hard to compare the two at this position in particular.
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby sluggermatt15 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 9:24 pm

JameisLoseston wrote:A couple counter-points:

2015 was Newton's biggest statistical year, but one could argue it's not even his greatest, because in the context of rookie QB seasons his 2011 was utterly historic. I'd give him credit for two truly great seasons.

Second, we can all agree the HOF is terrible beyond terrible at picking QBs, so using "one of the greatest QBs ever" as the HOF criterion is completely fallacious. At lest a few HOF QBs would be quite tough sells for HOVG (which has been mostly excellent at picking QBs), something that no other position can come close to saying. So while we may know better re: Newton, there's no telling whether the fools who inducted Troy Aikman first-ballot will. It's hard to compare the two at this position in particular.


Who is in the PF HOF as a QB that should not be?
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby JameisLoseston » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:08 pm

I'd find Aikman tough to support for HOVG. A league average game-manager in an era when it's not like they weren't throwing the ball. His RB had more touchdowns than him more years than not, and he wasn't avoiding turnovers like a champ either. If he was drafted in the 5th round instead of 1st overall, with the same career stats, we wouldn't remember him.

George Blanda was a turnover god, totally propped up by Hennigan and Groman in his good years, and his appearance of immense longevity is a bit artificial; he only started about 9 seasons at QB. 9 seasons and is STILL 2nd in career INTs, which is what happens when you average 30 a year. These are the only two HOFers I would not support for HOVG, and not coincidentally, both are quarterbacks.

Bob Waterfield, Bob Griese, Ken Stabler, and even Joe Namath all come off as solidly HOVG to my analysis. All above average guys for their respective eras in their prime, but just, above average.

I'm darn sure Eli Manning, Big Ben, and Rivers will all get in as well, and I'm supporting none of them. Maybe this is just a position I have high standards for, but I feel like I'm holding them to the same standard as every other position. You have to at least have been one of the best in the league at your peak, and none of the guys I've just named were ever that. You might not agree with these picks, but you can't say I don't come prepared with solid arguments.
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Re: Cam Newton

Postby conace21 » Sun Nov 10, 2019 10:45 pm

JameisLoseston wrote:I'd find Aikman tough to support for HOVG. A league average game-manager in an era when it's not like they weren't throwing the ball. His RB had more touchdowns than him more years than not, and he wasn't avoiding turnovers like a champ either. If he was drafted in the 5th round instead of 1st overall, with the same career stats, we wouldn't remember him.

George Blanda was a turnover god, totally propped up by Hennigan and Groman in his good years, and his appearance of immense longevity is a bit artificial; he only started about 9 seasons at QB. 9 seasons and is STILL 2nd in career INTs, which is what happens when you average 30 a year. These are the only two HOFers I would not support for HOVG, and not coincidentally, both are quarterbacks.

Bob Waterfield, Bob Griese, Ken Stabler, and even Joe Namath all come off as solidly HOVG to my analysis. All above average guys for their respective eras in their prime, but just, above average.

I'm darn sure Eli Manning, Big Ben, and Rivers will all get in as well, and I'm supporting none of them. Maybe this is just a position I have high standards for, but I feel like I'm holding them to the same standard as every other position. You have to at least have been one of the best in the league at your peak, and none of the guys I've just named were ever that. You might not agree with these picks, but you can't say I don't come prepared with solid arguments.

I support having standards for HOF induction, but I disagree with some points about Aikman. He's not remembered for being the 1st overall pick, but for winning three Super Bowls. Aikman was extremely accurate. The stats say he was #1 or #2 in completion percentage 5 times in a 6 year span. His 69.1% in 1993 was 4th best ever at the time. The eye test supports the numbers. Aikman was a great rhythm passer, and he played in an offense suited to his strength. (Dr. Z called it the real west coast offense.) He had a superb work ethic and developed near perfect timing with Irvin and Novacek (and to a lesser extent, Alvin Harper.) He also turned it on in the postseason, at least in his prime from 1991-1994.
I could listen to arguments against his HOF candidacy, but he would be one of the best players in the HOVG if he was eligible.
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