1965 NFL Draft question

1965 NFL Draft question

Postby vikingsfan1963 » Wed Sep 23, 2020 9:10 pm

How did the Chicago Bears end up with the #3 and #4 picks in the first round?
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Re: 1965 NFL Draft question

Postby lietzaro24 » Thu Sep 24, 2020 3:27 am

https://www.prosportstransactions.com/f ... s/1965.htm

I would have to assume that this is accurate...
The Bears '64 2nd and '64 4th went to the Steelers for the Steelers #1 in 1965 and that ended up being the 3rd pick in the draft since Pittsburgh finished '64 with a 5-9 record.

The #4 pick belonged to the Bears due to a 5-9 campaign in 1964. Chicago also acquired the 6th pick in the first round from Washington for a couple of players in order to draft Steve DeLong, who would sign with the AFL's Chargers instead.
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Re: 1965 NFL Draft question

Postby Jay Z » Thu Sep 24, 2020 12:06 pm

lietzaro24 wrote:https://www.prosportstransactions.com/football/DraftTrades/Years/1965.htm

I would have to assume that this is accurate...
The Bears '64 2nd and '64 4th went to the Steelers for the Steelers #1 in 1965 and that ended up being the 3rd pick in the draft since Pittsburgh finished '64 with a 5-9 record.

The #4 pick belonged to the Bears due to a 5-9 campaign in 1964. Chicago also acquired the 6th pick in the first round from Washington for a couple of players in order to draft Steve DeLong, who would sign with the AFL's Chargers instead.


I don't think that the first one is accurate.

The #4 pick they have listed as going to the Steelers was the Steelers' own pick. They have that going to the Bears in an earlier trade for Harlon Hill, then returning in this supposed draft day trade.

Those sorts of draft choice only trades basically never happened at that time. Plus the Bears were among the worst teams at announcing any sort of transactions. So it's something that would be difficult to find in the press.

Complicating the issue is the fact that there were many trades between the Steelers and Bears. It was very rare at the time to announce which particular draft choice was traded. It was usually just a "draft choice." If there are few trades between two teams, it's usually not a problem to figure out why the draft choice went from one team to another. Not the case with the Steelers and Bears.

That particular #1 pick has been discussed before. At the time, it seemed to be a trade for backup tight end Chuck Logan. Which seems like an overpay, certainly, even back then.

If someone else has any links or anything that would actually confirm this, I'd be glad to see it.
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Re: 1965 NFL Draft question

Postby SixtiesFan » Thu Sep 24, 2020 5:59 pm

Jay Z wrote:
lietzaro24 wrote:https://www.prosportstransactions.com/football/DraftTrades/Years/1965.htm

I would have to assume that this is accurate...
The Bears '64 2nd and '64 4th went to the Steelers for the Steelers #1 in 1965 and that ended up being the 3rd pick in the draft since Pittsburgh finished '64 with a 5-9 record.

The #4 pick belonged to the Bears due to a 5-9 campaign in 1964. Chicago also acquired the 6th pick in the first round from Washington for a couple of players in order to draft Steve DeLong, who would sign with the AFL's Chargers instead.


I don't think that the first one is accurate.

The #4 pick they have listed as going to the Steelers was the Steelers' own pick. They have that going to the Bears in an earlier trade for Harlon Hill, then returning in this supposed draft day trade.

Those sorts of draft choice only trades basically never happened at that time. Plus the Bears were among the worst teams at announcing any sort of transactions. So it's something that would be difficult to find in the press.

Complicating the issue is the fact that there were many trades between the Steelers and Bears. It was very rare at the time to announce which particular draft choice was traded. It was usually just a "draft choice." If there are few trades between two teams, it's usually not a problem to figure out why the draft choice went from one team to another. Not the case with the Steelers and Bears.

That particular #1 pick has been discussed before. At the time, it seemed to be a trade for backup tight end Chuck Logan. Which seems like an overpay, certainly, even back then.

If someone else has any links or anything that would actually confirm this, I'd be glad to see it.


In a 1981 book George Allen said that in addition to being the Bears' defensive coach, he was in charge of player-personnel, drafting players and trades.
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Re: 1965 NFL Draft question

Postby Jay Z » Thu Sep 24, 2020 9:42 pm

SixtiesFan wrote:In a 1981 book George Allen said that in addition to being the Bears' defensive coach, he was in charge of player-personnel, drafting players and trades.


OK, I looked in the Bears media guide. I will retract my earlier statement. Apparently they did actually make that draft day trade.

Yeah, those Bears Steelers trades have all of the earmarks of George Allen. Three separate times, the same pick was traded to one team in one trade, then returned in a second trade. Yeesh.
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Re: 1965 NFL Draft question

Postby JohnTurney » Fri Sep 25, 2020 7:20 am

https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com ... -time.html

Thursday, June 11, 2020
The Worst Trade of All-Time?
LOOKING BACK
By John Turney
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Re: 1965 NFL Draft question

Postby BD Sullivan » Sat Sep 26, 2020 10:49 am

Jay Z wrote:
SixtiesFan wrote:In a 1981 book George Allen said that in addition to being the Bears' defensive coach, he was in charge of player-personnel, drafting players and trades.


OK, I looked in the Bears media guide. I will retract my earlier statement. Apparently they did actually make that draft day trade.

Yeah, those Bears Steelers trades have all of the earmarks of George Allen. Three separate times, the same pick was traded to one team in one trade, then returned in a second trade. Yeesh.


Allen was ironically trading with Buddy Parker, who essentially used Allen's "Future is now" approach before Allen
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Re: 1965 NFL Draft question

Postby Jay Z » Mon Oct 05, 2020 2:04 am

JohnTurney wrote:https://nflfootballjournal.blogspot.com/2020/06/the-worst-trade-of-all-time.html

Thursday, June 11, 2020
The Worst Trade of All-Time?
LOOKING BACK
By John Turney


There were actually more HOFers drafted in 1964 (10 - I am not counting Parcells) than 1965 (5.) Dave Wilcox was drafted the next pick after the Steelers picked Jim Kelly. Butkus for Wilcox and McGee, I think the Steelers win that one.

Two of the 5 HOFers in the 1965 NFL draft went to the AFL too. Namath and Biletnikoff went AFL.

Kind of a long shot that the Bears were able to get both Butkus and Sayers. Not draft them, but sign them. Bears lost three #1 picks to the AFL, including Steve DeLong in this same draft. Butkus may have been easier, since the Broncos drafted him and he was from Illinois. Maybe it was a forgone conclusion that Butkus was going to the NFL. The drafts were held the same day, I don't know if the Broncos would have known that the Bears drafted Butkus.

Sayers went to Kansas and was drafted by the Chiefs. An oddity where the Chiefs missed on Sayers but got Mike Garrett the next year, whom they drafted really low, and was from LA and was drafted by the Rams in the 2nd round. Other than 1965, I don't know if it mattered a lot. Sayers would have been in the first Super Bowl. Does it make a difference? Sayers had some big games against the Packers, but ran for 97 yards in 35 attempts when the Bears played the Packers in 1966. So I guess they could handle him at that time. Otherwise, Garrett was probably sufficient.

Who did the drafting for the Bears after Allen left? Was it Dooley? Those drafts are terrible. You wonder why Butkus and Sayers went from 9-5 as rookies to 1-13 in year 5, it's all in those drafts. Halas should have handed the team over to Allen. The story about Halas winning the lawsuit is cute, but Halas was over 70 at the time, and there was no one else competent in the organization. They were probably lucky they got that one championship in 1963.
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Re: 1965 NFL Draft question

Postby BD Sullivan » Thu Oct 08, 2020 8:31 pm

Jay Z wrote:There were actually more HOFers drafted in 1964 (10 - I am not counting Parcells) than 1965 (5.) Dave Wilcox was drafted the next pick after the Steelers picked Jim Kelly. Butkus for Wilcox and McGee, I think the Steelers win that one.


Browns got two of them, one not so surprising (Paul Warfield) and one surprising (Leroy Kelly)
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