1967 Blues for the Browns

[Saban1]

Here is something that happened in 1961 that affected the Cleveland Browns in 1966 and 1967. Art Modell bought the Browns in 1961. One of the first things that he did as owner is bring Lou Groza back to the team. Groza had retired after the 1959 season due to a bad back and was now 37 years old, and with his back better, could still kick well. He was also a very good offensive tackle in his prime years, but was not expected to play that position now. Besides, the Browns now had a good one in Dick Schafrath.

Paul Brown went along with this. Of course, with Modell being the new owner, Brown probably wasn't ready to already have a problem with Art. There was one thing though. Cleveland already had a very good place kicker (and punter) in Sam Baker. In 1961, Baker was still the punter, but was relieved of his place kicking duties due to Groza coming back. In 1962, the Browns drafted Gary Collins, who took over the punting chores. Sam Baker was moved on to the Dallas Cowboys.

Lou Groza kicked well for a few years until 1966 when he was 42 years old. Lou had a terrible year in 1966, and his missed field goals that year, including 3 misses in the Cards game that the Browns lost, 34 to 28, may have cost Cleveland an appearance in the 1966 NFL Championship game. In 1966, Groza made 9 of 23 field goal attempts for a percentage of 39.1%. Compare that to Sam Baker, playing for Philadelphia in 1966, who made 18 of 25 field goal attempts that year for a percentage of 72.0%. Quite a difference. Groza also missed a couple of big ones in their key game with Dallas on Thanksgiving in 1966.

In 1967, Groza was 11 for 23 for 47.8% whereas Baker was 12 of 19 for 63.2% for Philadelphia. Groza also was kicking off shorter than previous years. In the Green Bay game, his two kickoffs were to about the 15 yard line which were both returned for TD's by Travis Williams. Cleveland lost, 55 to 7. In his prime years, Groza often kicked the ball out of the end zone.

This is not meant to be a knock on Lou Groza, who was one of the heroes of my youth. In his prime, he was the best place kicker around, and also was a great offensive tackle. In 1961, I believe that Art Modell was looking for some personal glory as well as publicity for the team (Modell was in advertising before he bought the Browns). He wasn't correcting an existing problem with the team, and it probably was a good trade that brought Sam Baker to the Browns in 1960. In the long run, I believe it was a mistake that may have cost the Cleveland Browns a championship.

[Saban1]

I believe that the Cleveland Browns played hard in the 1967 opener against the Dallas Cowboys and fully expected to win that game. In fact, I think that Cleveland played one of their best games of that season against Dallas that day, at least on the defensive side of the ball, despite losing 21 to 14.

Frank Ryan was 17 for 37 passing for 239 yards, but threw three interceptions. The Cowboys completely stymied the Browns running game that day holding them to only eleven yards rushing. I guess that Cleveland had not solved Dallas' flex defense (a defense designed to stop the run) yet and I think that the Cowboys were up for that game against the hated Browns.

Cleveland's defense really allowed only 14 points against Dallas that day because the Cowboys also got a pick 6 by Chuck Howley. I watched that game at the time, and if memory serves, I seem to remember that the pass was deflected before Howley intercepted it, although highlight films do not show the deflection.

There was some bad luck for the Browns as kicker Lou Groza missed field goals of 27 and 37 yards and another field goal attempt of 30 yards had the pass from center flubbed by the holder (backup quarterback Dick Shiner). So, this cost the Browns a possible 9 points.

Can't say that the Browns should have won that game because Dallas did outplay Cleveland. When you stop the Browns running game as the Cowboys did that day, you should win. Also, Dallas did gain more yards overall than Cleveland did. Maybe what helped make the game as close as it was is that the Cowboys lost three fumbles to the Browns.

Maybe the loss to Dallas that day was not that big a deal as Cleveland did play in an easy division and the Browns did end up in the playoffs in 1967, but only to get slaughtered 52 to 14 by those same Cowboys. Easy division or not, Cleveland did really want to win their opening game against the Cowboys, but so did Dallas.

Frank Ryan may have had his best game against Dallas in the 1967 opener. Frank probably wasn't as battered going into that game as he was in most of his later games, being that he did not play as much as usual during the preseason games.

Dallas did have an extra day of rest and time to plan for the Cleveland opening game. That may not mean that much, but the Cowboys did get slaughtered by Baltimore in their final exhibition game which might have put the team in the right frame of mind even though the Colts game was really meaningless.

The Browns slaughtered Minnesota in their last preseason game for their only exhibition win in 1967. Sometimes an easy win might make a team a little less hungry going into their next game, so it could be that the Dallas Cowboys went into the opener that year in a little tougher frame of mind than Cleveland.

There were some breaks going the Cowboys way, like Groza missing two field goals that he likely would have made in his prime years, and a flubbed pass from center on another fairly close field goal try. There also was an element of luck in Howley's batted pick six on the first play from scrimmage in the second half.

Maybe the opener in 1967 was the best game that the Browns played that year, but Dallas did stop Cleveland's running game that day. I believe that the Browns only rushed for 11 yards that day, which says something about the Cowboys run defense. Holding backs like Leroy Kelly and Ernie Green to only 11 yards is quite a feat.

[conace21]

Here is something that happened in 1961 that affected the Cleveland Browns in 1966 and 1967. Art Modell bought the Browns in 1961. One of the first things that he did as owner is bring Lou Groza back to the team. Groza had retired after the 1959 season due to a bad back and was now 37 years old, and with his back better, could still kick well. He was also a very good offensive tackle in his prime years, but was not expected to play that position now. Besides, the Browns now had a good one in Dick Schafrath.

Paul Brown went along with this. Of course, with Modell being the new owner, Brown probably wasn't ready to already have a problem with Art. There was one thing though. Cleveland already had a very good place kicker (and punter) in Sam Baker. In 1961, Baker was still the punter, but was relieved of his place kicking duties due to Groza coming back. In 1962, the Browns drafted Gary Collins, who took over the punting chores. Sam Baker was moved on to the Dallas Cowboys.

Lou Groza kicked well for a few years until 1966 when he was 42 years old. Lou had a terrible year in 1966, and his missed field goals that year, including 3 misses in the Cards game that the Browns lost, 34 to 28, may have cost Cleveland an appearance in the 1966 NFL Championship game. In 1966, Groza made 9 of 23 field goal attempts for a percentage of 39.1%. Compare that to Sam Baker, playing for Philadelphia in 1966, who made 18 of 25 field goal attempts that year for a percentage of 72.0%. Quite a difference. Groza also missed a couple of big ones in their key game with Dallas on Thanksgiving in 1966.

In 1967, Groza was 11 for 23 for 47.8% whereas Baker was 12 of 19 for 63.2% for Philadelphia. Groza also was kicking off shorter than previous years. In the Green Bay game, his two kickoffs were to about the 15 yard line which were both returned for TD's by Travis Williams. Cleveland lost, 55 to 7. In his prime years, Groza often kicked the ball out of the end zone.

This is not meant to be a knock on Lou Groza, who was one of the heroes of my youth. In his prime, he was the best place kicker around, and also was a great offensive tackle. In 1961, I believe that Art Modell was looking for some personal glory as well as publicity for the team (Modell was in advertising before he bought the Browns). He wasn't correcting an existing problem with the team, and it probably was a good trade that brought Sam Baker to the Browns in 1960. In the long run, I believe it was a mistake that may have cost the Cleveland Browns a championship.

I don't think you captured the full picture. Groza was very good in the first 5 years of his second stint with the Browns. He only had 1 bad year in that span, 1962. From 1961-1965 he was consistently among the league leaders in FG%, ranking 1st, 8th, 1st, 2nd, and 4th, respectively. He made 61.5% of his FG's in that time span, while Baker made exactly 50% in the same period of time. Baker certainly excelled in the same year Groza faltered, but I don't think you can put too much blame on Art for making a move that paid off handsomely for 5 years, just because Groza eventually fell off. Yes, the Browns may have made the 1966 Championship Game with Baker instead of Groza, but they probably don't make the 1965 NFLCG with Baker (39.1% that year) instead of Groza (64%.) Lou also outperformed Baker in 1964, when the Browns won the championship, although they were much closer in FG % that season

It's also debatable how much longer Paul Brown would have kept Baker around. Brown was obviously a strict disciplinarian, who demanded discipline from his players on and off the field.
According to Tom Landry, Baker was very casual about team rules and liked to party. Landry traded Baker to Philadelphia after only two seasons, despite Baker being a Pro Bowl punter.
A few years later, Landry was coaching the All Stars and needed a kicker. He asked an assistant: "Who's the best kicker in our conference?"
"Sam Baker."
"OK. Who's the 2nd best kicker in our conference?"
Paul Brown was even less likely to tolerate Baker's behavior than Tom Landry.

[Saban1]

Here is something that happened in 1961 that affected the Cleveland Browns in 1966 and 1967. Art Modell bought the Browns in 1961. One of the first things that he did as owner is bring Lou Groza back to the team. Groza had retired after the 1959 season due to a bad back and was now 37 years old, and with his back better, could still kick well. He was also a very good offensive tackle in his prime years, but was not expected to play that position now. Besides, the Browns now had a good one in Dick Schafrath.

Paul Brown went along with this. Of course, with Modell being the new owner, Brown probably wasn't ready to already have a problem with Art. There was one thing though. Cleveland already had a very good place kicker (and punter) in Sam Baker. In 1961, Baker was still the punter, but was relieved of his place kicking duties due to Groza coming back. In 1962, the Browns drafted Gary Collins, who took over the punting chores. Sam Baker was moved on to the Dallas Cowboys.

Lou Groza kicked well for a few years until 1966 when he was 42 years old. Lou had a terrible year in 1966, and his missed field goals that year, including 3 misses in the Cards game that the Browns lost, 34 to 28, may have cost Cleveland an appearance in the 1966 NFL Championship game. In 1966, Groza made 9 of 23 field goal attempts for a percentage of 39.1%. Compare that to Sam Baker, playing for Philadelphia in 1966, who made 18 of 25 field goal attempts that year for a percentage of 72.0%. Quite a difference. Groza also missed a couple of big ones in their key game with Dallas on Thanksgiving in 1966.

In 1967, Groza was 11 for 23 for 47.8% whereas Baker was 12 of 19 for 63.2% for Philadelphia. Groza also was kicking off shorter than previous years. In the Green Bay game, his two kickoffs were to about the 15 yard line which were both returned for TD's by Travis Williams. Cleveland lost, 55 to 7. In his prime years, Groza often kicked the ball out of the end zone.

This is not meant to be a knock on Lou Groza, who was one of the heroes of my youth. In his prime, he was the best place kicker around, and also was a great offensive tackle. In 1961, I believe that Art Modell was looking for some personal glory as well as publicity for the team (Modell was in advertising before he bought the Browns). He wasn't correcting an existing problem with the team, and it probably was a good trade that brought Sam Baker to the Browns in 1960. In the long run, I believe it was a mistake that may have cost the Cleveland Browns a championship.

I don't think you captured the full picture. Groza was very good in the first 5 years of his second stint with the Browns. He only had 1 bad year in that span, 1962. From 1961-1965 he was consistently among the league leaders in FG%, ranking 1st, 8th, 1st, 2nd, and 4th, respectively. He made 61.5% of his FG's in that time span, while Baker made exactly 50% in the same period of time. Baker certainly excelled in the same year Groza faltered, but I don't think you can put too much blame on Art for making a move that paid off handsomely for 5 years, just because Groza eventually fell off. Yes, the Browns may have made the 1966 Championship Game with Baker instead of Groza, but they probably don't make the 1965 NFLCG with Baker (39.1% that year) instead of Groza (64%.) Lou also outperformed Baker in 1964, when the Browns won the championship, although they were much closer in FG % that season

It's also debatable how much longer Paul Brown would have kept Baker around. Brown was obviously a strict disciplinarian, who demanded discipline from his players on and off the field.
According to Tom Landry, Baker was very casual about team rules and liked to party. Landry traded Baker to Philadelphia after only two seasons, despite Baker being a Pro Bowl punter.
A few years later, Landry was coaching the All Stars and needed a kicker. He asked an assistant: "Who's the best kicker in our conference?"
"Sam Baker."
"OK. Who's the 2nd best kicker in our conference?"
Paul Brown was even less likely to tolerate Baker's behavior than Tom Landry.

I kind of agree with some of this. Groza kicked well for 5 years except for 1962. As far as 1965 goes, the Eastern Conference was very weak that year with Cleveland being the only team with a winning record. The Browns were 11 and 3 in 1965 with Dallas and the Giants finishing tied for 2nd with 7 and 7 records. Cleveland ran away with the Eastern Conference title in 1965 and would have won without even having a field goal kicker.

In 1964, about the only game that Groza might have made a difference in was the 33 - 33 tie with the Cards, but who knows.

In 1961, there wasn't any glaring need for a field goal kicker in Cleveland, and Sam Baker was 5 years younger than Lou Groza. Modell brought the 36 year old Groza back to apparently get some personal glory for himself getting a big name player back with the Browns. Baker had actually kicked better than Groza in 1958 and 1959.

About Brown tolerating Baker's behavior: Brown would tolerate a players' drinking, partying, etc. if the player was performing well on the field and he did not have a player who could do the job as well or better. Len Ford was an example of that. Ford was a heavy drinker and I am sure that Brown knew that, but kept him on the team until 1958 when he was past his prime.

[BD Sullivan]

Actually, it was Paul Brown who brought Groza back in '61--the day after Baker shanked a 17-yard FG attempt in the exhibition opener against the Lions. The miss came early in the game and set the tone for the 35-7 loss. The bigger issue was that this was the game where Gene Hickerson was lost for the year with a broken leg.

Oddly, Brown said at the time that Baker would be the punter and serve as Jim Brown's backup. The Cowboys weren't taking much of a chance, since their kicker in 1961 was rookie Allen Green, who only made five of his 15 FG attempts and only made 1-of-4 from 20-29 and missed all five attempts beyond 40 yards.

Groza's rough 1962 season really only cost the Browns two wins: the 17-16 loss to the Redskins and the 14-14 tie to the Eagles. Had he been a better kicker in those games, the Browns still would have only finished 9-5--in a second-place tie with the Steelers. All the other misses came in games where they got stomped or they won comfortably.

[conace21]

Here is something that happened in 1961 that affected the Cleveland Browns in 1966 and 1967. Art Modell bought the Browns in 1961. One of the first things that he did as owner is bring Lou Groza back to the team. Groza had retired after the 1959 season due to a bad back and was now 37 years old, and with his back better, could still kick well. He was also a very good offensive tackle in his prime years, but was not expected to play that position now. Besides, the Browns now had a good one in Dick Schafrath.

Paul Brown went along with this. Of course, with Modell being the new owner, Brown probably wasn't ready to already have a problem with Art. There was one thing though. Cleveland already had a very good place kicker (and punter) in Sam Baker. In 1961, Baker was still the punter, but was relieved of his place kicking duties due to Groza coming back. In 1962, the Browns drafted Gary Collins, who took over the punting chores. Sam Baker was moved on to the Dallas Cowboys.

Lou Groza kicked well for a few years until 1966 when he was 42 years old. Lou had a terrible year in 1966, and his missed field goals that year, including 3 misses in the Cards game that the Browns lost, 34 to 28, may have cost Cleveland an appearance in the 1966 NFL Championship game. In 1966, Groza made 9 of 23 field goal attempts for a percentage of 39.1%. Compare that to Sam Baker, playing for Philadelphia in 1966, who made 18 of 25 field goal attempts that year for a percentage of 72.0%. Quite a difference. Groza also missed a couple of big ones in their key game with Dallas on Thanksgiving in 1966.

In 1967, Groza was 11 for 23 for 47.8% whereas Baker was 12 of 19 for 63.2% for Philadelphia. Groza also was kicking off shorter than previous years. In the Green Bay game, his two kickoffs were to about the 15 yard line which were both returned for TD's by Travis Williams. Cleveland lost, 55 to 7. In his prime years, Groza often kicked the ball out of the end zone.

This is not meant to be a knock on Lou Groza, who was one of the heroes of my youth. In his prime, he was the best place kicker around, and also was a great offensive tackle. In 1961, I believe that Art Modell was looking for some personal glory as well as publicity for the team (Modell was in advertising before he bought the Browns). He wasn't correcting an existing problem with the team, and it probably was a good trade that brought Sam Baker to the Browns in 1960. In the long run, I believe it was a mistake that may have cost the Cleveland Browns a championship.

I don't think you captured the full picture. Groza was very good in the first 5 years of his second stint with the Browns. He only had 1 bad year in that span, 1962. From 1961-1965 he was consistently among the league leaders in FG%, ranking 1st, 8th, 1st, 2nd, and 4th, respectively. He made 61.5% of his FG's in that time span, while Baker made exactly 50% in the same period of time. Baker certainly excelled in the same year Groza faltered, but I don't think you can put too much blame on Art for making a move that paid off handsomely for 5 years, just because Groza eventually fell off. Yes, the Browns may have made the 1966 Championship Game with Baker instead of Groza, but they probably don't make the 1965 NFLCG with Baker (39.1% that year) instead of Groza (64%.) Lou also outperformed Baker in 1964, when the Browns won the championship, although they were much closer in FG % that season

It's also debatable how much longer Paul Brown would have kept Baker around. Brown was obviously a strict disciplinarian, who demanded discipline from his players on and off the field.
According to Tom Landry, Baker was very casual about team rules and liked to party. Landry traded Baker to Philadelphia after only two seasons, despite Baker being a Pro Bowl punter.
A few years later, Landry was coaching the All Stars and needed a kicker. He asked an assistant: "Who's the best kicker in our conference?"
"Sam Baker."
"OK. Who's the 2nd best kicker in our conference?"
Paul Brown was even less likely to tolerate Baker's behavior than Tom Landry.

I kind of agree with some of this. Groza kicked well for 5 years except for 1962. As far as 1965 goes, the Eastern Conference was very weak that year with Cleveland being the only team with a winning record. The Browns were 11 and 3 in 1965 with Dallas and the Giants finishing tied for 2nd with 7 and 7 records. Cleveland ran away with the Eastern Conference title in 1965 and would have won without even having a field goal kicker.

In 1964, about the only game that Groza might have made a difference in was the 33 - 33 tie with the Cards, but who knows.

In 1961, there wasn't any glaring need for a field goal kicker in Cleveland, and Sam Baker was 5 years younger than Lou Groza. Modell brought the 36 year old Groza back to apparently get some personal glory for himself getting a big name player back with the Browns. Baker had actually kicked better than Groza in 1958 and 1959.

About Brown tolerating Baker's behavior: Brown would tolerate a players' drinking, partying, etc. if the player was performing well on the field and he did not have a player who could do the job as well or better. Len Ford was an example of that. Ford was a heavy drinker and I am sure that Brown knew that, but kept him on the team until 1958 when he was past his prime.

Ford was a heavy drinker, but he was not as openly defiant of his head coach. I don't know about Baker's behavior in Cleveland, but it certainly was disruptive in Dallas.

Groza outperformed Baker in 3 out of the 4 years after Baker was traded, in addition to having an outstanding season in 1961 when Baker was the Cleveland punter. The mistake was not bringing Groza back; it was hanging on to him two seasons too long.

[Saban1]

Conace 21: The mistake may have been hanging on to Groza two years too long, but how do you know when he is not going to be able to do the job anywhere as good anymore? A player that keeps playing into his 40's is probably going to have that happen sooner or later. It may be happening to Tom Brady now to a certain extent.

BD: I read someplace that Modell got in touch with Groza in 1961 and took him someplace and had him kick some field goals. Satisfied that Lou could still kick, Modell must have ran it by Paul Brown, and maybe Brown went along when Baker shanked the field goal attempt against Detroit. That may be how it happened, or maybe what I read was wrong.

[Saban1]

Just some loose ends.

Lou Groza's birthday was 1/25/24, so he was 37 when he came back to placekick for Cleveland in 1961. Not 36 as I said before. My mistake.

Sam Baker made 60 per cent of his field goal attempts in 1960, which was considered pretty good in those days. Baker kicked better than Groza in 1958 and 1959. So, there wasn't any compelling need for a field goal kicker for the Browns in 1961. I think that Art Modell just wanted to make some news in Cleveland.

True that Groza did kick better than Baker in 3 out of 4 years starting in 1961, but not sure that it made any difference in how the Browns finished those years. There is a good chance that Groza's kicking did cost Cleveland at least a conference championship in 1966.

Not saying this to knock Groza, who was the greatest place kicker of his time, and made the most important field goal ever for the Cleveland Browns in the 1950 NFL Championship game.

[Saban1]

Lou Groza went from making 9 of 23 field goal attempts in 1966 to 11 of 23 in 1967. He was 0 for 2 in their opener against Dallas in 1967 not including a muffed pass from center on a 3rd attempt (Cleveland lost by 7 points). So, it looked like Groza was starting where he left off in 1966. Lou didn't attempt a field goal in his next two games but missed another one in his fourth game against Pittsburgh. After that, he kicked better and made important ones against the Cardinals in both of their games (the Cards figured to be the Browns main rivals in the new Century Division in 1967).

Outside of 3 misses out of 5 attempts from the 20 to 29 yard lines, Lou Kicked pretty well from inside the 40 yard line in 1967, but was 1 of 8 from outside the 40 (1 of 7 from the 40 to 49 yard lines). So, his field goal kicking was not bad from close in. His main problem that year was getting distance on his kicks at the age of 43.

In his prime years, Lou would routinely often kick the football out of the end zone on kickoffs. It would have been nice to have a couple of those out of the end zone kickoffs against the Packers in that game they lost 55 to 7. Both Cleveland kickoffs in that game were to about the 15 yard line and were returned for TD's by Travis Williams, including the one to open the game.

Imagine a team like Cleveland going to Milwaukee and expecting a very tough game from the champion Packers and then having the opening kickoff returned for a touchdown. It must have been like a punch in the stomach to start the game. Cleveland had played Green Bay tough in 1966, only losing by one point, 21 to 20. Then to be the victims of a 55 to 7 rout in 1967 by a team that they had considered themselves about equal to must have been hard to take.

[BD Sullivan]

in both 1966 and '67, the Browns went 9-5. Those 10 losses were almost always because they died in the second half.

In 1966, they were outscored 66-24 in the second half of their losses. The only game in which they "won" the second half was the second-last game at Philly, outscoing the Eagles, 14-6. Of course, the Eagles likely let their foot off the gas a little since they led 27-7 at the break.

In 1967, they were outscored 76-38 in the second half of their losses. It probably could have been worse, but in the GB game, they were losing 45-7 at the half.