Poltically Incorrect discussion

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Poltically Incorrect discussion

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Poltically Incorrect discussion
Started by John Turney, Jan 07 2014 01:16 AM
I have sometimes wondered

19 replies to this topic
#1 John Turney
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:16 AM
http://meditations-m...-player-of.html

#2 JohnH19
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:35 AM
Thanks for posting that, John. I've often wondered about Van Buren's heritage.

Edit: The reason I've wondered is that I have read several times that he was of Dutch heritage.

#3 Jeffrey Miller
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 01:54 AM
I remember seeing pictures of him when I was a kid and thinking he was a black man. At that time, I didn't understand the difference, or the significance.

#4 rhickok1109
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 11:24 AM
I don't think it's politically incorrect to discuss such things. I'm pretty sure the question never arose when he was playing. I was only a kid, but I certainly remember him as a player and I think I would have been aware if there had been any discussion about his race. After all, race was just becoming a matter of discussion in professional sports. When the Packers signed their first black player, Bob Mann, in 1950, it was big news, as was the signing of any black player by any previously all-white NFL team. (Green Bay itself was all-white at the time and Bob Mann was the first black person I ever saw.)

This brings up the "mixed race" question, which has always been a problem in the United States. But it's certainly no secret that most American "blacks" are, in fact, part Caucasian. So how do we decide whether a given person is black or not? Is there a test beyond the obvious eye test for skin color? (Personally, I don't believe that it's important to decide, but the question does come up in many social and political contexts.)

This leads to me something that I've been wondering about for some time. I think we all know that Fritz Pollard was the NFL's first black coach. And probably we all "know" that Dennis Green became the second when the Minnesota Vikings hired him in 1992.

But what about Wayne Fontes?

I live in New Bedford, MA, where Fontes was born. He's Cape Verdean, which is a little-known nationality in most of the country, but it's well known here. Cape Verdeans originally came from the Cape Verde islands, a former Portuguese colony whose inhabitants are almost all part West African and part Portuguese. They range in color from quite light to very dark. For a long time, they did not identify themselves as black, but simply as Cape Verdean. Back in the 1960s, the president of the local NAACP stirred up a fuss when he wrote a letter to the editor saying that any Cape Verdean who didn't think he was black should go to Mississippi and see what part of the bus he had to sit in. That has changed somewhat; I believe that most Cape Verdeans now identify themselves as "Black or African-American" on the census and similar forms. Although they have their own distinct community in New Bedford, many of them, especially the more politically active, do now belong to the NAACP.

It might be worthwhile to mention to mention a few fairly famous Cape Verdeans: tight end and future Hall of Famee Tony Gonzalez; Davy Lopes, former MLB second baseman and manager; Dana Barros, former NBA All-Star; Marvin Hagler, the former middleweight boxing champion; Paul Gonsalves, the great tenor sax player whose 27-chorus solo at the Newport Jazz Festival probably kept the Duke Ellington Orchestra in business; Horace Silver (originally Silva), the jazz pianist/composer/bandleader; and the musical group Tavares, all members of a Cape Verdean family from New Bedford.

So far as I know, the question of his race never came up when Fontes became the head coach of the Detroit Lions in 1988, four years before Green's hiring, and I don't believe that he has ever discussed it publicly.

Was Wayne Fontes the second black coach in NFL history? I believe he was. But is it important? If he has never claimed the honor, should any of us force it on him?

#5 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 11:55 AM
From the article: "Chances are great that Steve's father was part of the black creoles or Garifunas, who made up a portion of the population of La Ceiba". That's it? That's not research. Even little countries like Honduras had a census every now and then.

#6 conace21
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:07 PM

rhickok1109, on 07 Jan 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:
I don't think it's politically incorrect to discuss such things. I'm pretty sure the question never arose when he was playing. I was only a kid, but I certainly remember him as a player and I think I would have been aware if there had been any discussion about his race. After all, race was just becoming a matter of discussion in professional sports. When the Packers signed their first black player, Bob Mann, in 1950, it was big news, as was the signing of any black player by any previously all-white NFL team. (Green Bay itself was all-white at the time and Bob Mann was the first black person I ever saw.)

This brings up the "mixed race" question, which has always been a problem in the United States. But it's certainly no secret that most American "blacks" are, in fact, part Caucasian. So how do we decide whether a given person is black or not? Is there a test beyond the obvious eye test for skin color? (Personally, I don't believe that it's important to decide, but the question does come up in many social and political contexts.)

This leads to me something that I've been wondering about for some time. I think we all know that Fritz Pollard was the NFL's first black coach. And probably we all "know" that Dennis Green became the second when the Minnesota Vikings hired him in 1992.

But what about Wayne Fontes?

I live in New Bedford, MA, where Fontes was born. He's Cape Verdean, which is a little-known nationality in most of the country, but it's well known here. Cape Verdeans originally came from the Cape Verde islands, a former Portuguese colony whose inhabitants are almost all part West African and part Portuguese. They range in color from quite light to very dark. For a long time, they did not identify themselves as black, but simply as Cape Verdean. Back in the 1960s, the president of the local NAACP stirred up a fuss when he wrote a letter to the editor saying that any Cape Verdean who didn't think he was black should go to Mississippi and see what part of the bus he had to sit in. That has changed somewhat; I believe that most Cape Verdeans now identify themselves as "Black or African-American" on the census and similar forms. Although they have their own distinct community in New Bedford, many of them, especially the more politically active, do now belong to the NAACP.

It might be worthwhile to mention to mention a few fairly famous Cape Verdeans: tight end and future Hall of Famee Tony Gonzalez; Davy Lopes, former MLB second baseman and manager; Dana Barros, former NBA All-Star; Marvin Hagler, the former middleweight boxing champion; Paul Gonsalves, the great tenor sax player whose 27-chorus solo at the Newport Jazz Festival probably kept the Duke Ellington Orchestra in business; Horace Silver (originally Silva), the jazz pianist/composer/bandleader; and the musical group Tavares, all members of a Cape Verdean family from New Bedford.

So far as I know, the question of his race never came up when Fontes became the head coach of the Detroit Lions in 1988, four years before Green's hiring, and I don't believe that he has ever discussed it publicly.

Was Wayne Fontes the second black coach in NFL history? I believe he was. But is it important? If he has never claimed the honor, should any of us force it on him?

You forgot Art Shell. He was hired as LA's coach four games into the 1989 season.
#7 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:16 PM

Mark L. Ford, on 07 Jan 2014 - 11:55 AM, said:
From the article: "Chances are great that Steve's father was part of the black creoles or Garifunas, who made up a portion of the population of La Ceiba". That's it? That's not research. Even little countries like Honduras had a census every now and then.

I don't think it's realistic to expect a person who can pass as white to self-identify as black in a country where you're treated worse if you are labelled as being black.

Photos tell a compelling story. Skin colour often fades quickly after a couple of generations, but the secondary features remain longer. I'm a "white" Australian, though there's no doubt in my mind I have Aboriginal blood on both sides of my family. But even now, in 2014, the relatives back home won't hear any discussion of it.

#8 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 12:52 PM
In all fairness, the census data that Dr. McDaniels had was for Van Buren's grandfather, not his father. Perhaps there is nothing in a Honduras census or record that shows anything about the father. The premise of the article is a photo, followed by "Does this man look like he could be of African descent? If the answer is yes, which I suspect will be the reply of a majority who see this image, then history books will have to be rewritten." And then there's some speculation that chances are "great" that the father was of a particular ethnic group because he lived in a particular city where a "portion" of the residents were of that ethnic group. If "the history books will have to be rewritten", it won't be as a result of sensationalist stuff like this.

#9 Jeremy Crowhurst
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 02:53 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 07 Jan 2014 - 12:52 PM, said:
If "the history books will have to be rewritten", it won't be as a result of sensationalist stuff like this.

On that we agree.

It's really unfortunate that the story was presented in such a slapdash manner, because it is inconceivable that there weren't players "passing" (and I don't mean footballs or hockey pucks) in professional sports during the segregation years. With some research, it may have been possible to write something truly enlightening.

#10 TouchdownTimmy
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 05:24 PM
I always found it interesting that many of my white friends and their parents are proud to admit that they have Native-American blood in their families, but refuse to believe or admit if there are any African-Americans in their family tree. If you have ancestors in the deep south, believe me, there is African-American, Caucasian and Native-American blood in your family no matter what color you are. I know my family has all three.

It is very hard to tell in a black and white picture what some people are. My cousin always thought that Babe Ruth was black(some players who played with Ruth thought that he had black ancestry too). When I was a kid and we had a B/W TV we all thought that John Riggins was black.

No matter what Van Buren was, he was a man above all else and created in the image that he was supposed to be.

#11 rhickok1109
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 06:28 PM

TouchdownTimmy, on 07 Jan 2014 - 5:24 PM, said:
I always found it interesting that many of my white friends and their parents are proud to admit that they have Native-American blood in their families, but refuse to believe or admit if there are any African-Americans in their family tree. If you have ancestors in the deep south, believe me, there is African-American, Caucasian and Native-American blood in your family no matter what color you are. I know my family has all three.

It is very hard to tell in a black and white picture what some people are. My cousin always thought that Babe Ruth was black(some players who played with Ruth thought that he had black ancestry too). When I was a kid and we had a B/W TV we all thought that John Riggins was black.

No matter what Van Buren was, he was a man above all else and created in the image that he was supposed to be.

Very well put.

#12 luckyshow
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Posted 07 January 2014 - 07:07 PM
It is a slippery slope trying to "determine" one's race. Used to be in the South, even 1% was enough to brand one "Negro"

Early baseball, turn of the 20th century, many times a black could "pass" if called Cuban. So there was some sort of separation for Spanish speaking (which I guess in these terms\, would include Portuguese). John McGraw was always trying to figure out ways to play black players. But the Cuban designation usually didn't work. Only in a few instances.

Race is a construct, not an actual scientific designation. It is an illusion. Today using DNA and RNA, they can determine locations of ancestry. But if they are right about man's beginnings, all start in Africa at some moment in the past.

It has been used as a designation of exclusion in the past, not inclusion. Affirmative Action is one instance of use of race for inclusion. Maybe this is why it has bred contempt and misconstruction. Can't reverse the power structures so easy...

If Bill Clinton is considered the first "black president" in a tongue-in-cheek way, would this make Paul Brown the first black head coach?

#13 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 08 January 2014 - 11:19 AM
It's true that, 100 years ago, a person in the United States was legally considered black (and subject to all the restricted rights and privileges that went with that) if they had a great-grandparent of that race, being labeled an "octaroon" because they were "1/8th black". In that sense, I'm "1/8th Jewish". On the other hand, "one percent" would mean that one of your 64 great-great-great-great grandparents from the 18th or 19th century was of a certain ethnic group. Most of us would have to do a genealogical search to know even the name of an ancestor that far back. The "single drop of blood" statement in the article is an exaggeration, no surprise there.

#14 luckyshow
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Posted 08 January 2014 - 12:06 PM
The 1%, the single drop of blood, may be impossible at the time to determine. This didn't stop them from both believing this crap as well as sometimes applying it even if just using hearsay.

Today's geneology using specific markers is so accurate it would have destroyed all these theories, showing all were "Negro" except perhaps Asians. But then we just go back further.

I am sure all this science does not prevent similar "science" from still claiming this crap, and I am sure we can find web sites in a snap, that say just such racist stupidity.

I just think that DNA regressions prove the silliness of both racism and "race" itself. But cultural pride and similar attributes will always be with us and there is nothing wrong with it. Racism is an illness in my mind, maybe incurable in some, I don't know. And it is this racism that ironically is also the reason for racial pride in response, perhaps.

If we ever discovered that some early Washington Redskin was a blackskin passing as a whiteskin, and thus was the true first black Redskin player, this would still not change Marshall's racism, the Redskin's racist legacy, that they were forced to integrate to be able to play in the modern stadium. Not one iota would it, would it?

#15 JohnR
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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:25 PM
I got my DNA test results back from 23&Me just before they halted mailing their test kits. I discovered I'm 2.9% Neanderthal. Appears we all have a bit of the ol' knuckle dragger in us and can claim membership to an oppressed (nay, extinct) community.

#16 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 08 January 2014 - 01:50 PM

luckyshow, on 08 Jan 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:
If we ever discovered that some early Washington Redskin was a blackskin passing as a whiteskin, and thus was the true first black Redskin player, this would still not change Marshall's racism, the Redskin's racist legacy, that they were forced to integrate to be able to play in the modern stadium. Not one iota would it, would it?

I agree with you entirely on that. I think that the other thing that ticks me off about this article is that trying to make Van Buren out to be "the first black player of modern times" is an insult to the memory of black players who had to endure racism because of their skin color--- Duke Slater, Wilmeth Sidat-Singh, Marion Motley, Kenny Washington, Bill Willis, Em Tunnell, Woody Strode, and a lot of others who were prejudged by racists.

#17 JohnR
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Posted 08 January 2014 - 03:22 PM
Yes, we admire those that struggle against injustice & overcome obstacles. While we may admire Van Buren for his on field achievements, his path is in no way comparable.

#18 Jeffrey Miller
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Posted 08 January 2014 - 05:10 PM
Darwin is spinning in his grave ...

#19 TouchdownTimmy
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Posted 09 January 2014 - 01:56 AM
You know what the silliest thing is about racism? You can't pick your relatives nor the color of the skin you are born with.

#20 rhickok1109
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Posted 09 January 2014 - 12:02 PM

Mark L. Ford, on 08 Jan 2014 - 1:50 PM, said:
I agree with you entirely on that. I think that the other thing that ticks me off about this article is that trying to make Van Buren out to be "the first black player of modern times" is an insult to the memory of black players who had to endure racism because of their skin color--- Duke Slater, Wilmeth Sidat-Singh, Marion Motley, Kenny Washington, Bill Willis, Em Tunnell, Woody Strode, and a lot of others who were prejudged by racists.

That's an excellent point, Mark.
"It was a different game when I played.
When a player made a good play, he didn't jump up and down.
Those kinds of plays were expected."
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