NFL to test extra point kicks from the 20 during preseason

[oldecapecod11]

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NFL to test extra point kicks from the 20 during preseason
Started by Mark L. Ford, Apr 09 2014 12:32 PM

15 replies to this topic

#1 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 09 April 2014 - 12:32 PM
This brings back up a topic that we were talking about a month or two ago-- during selected games in the preseason during weeks one and two, extra point kicks will be from the 20 yard line in order to test whether to make that permanent.
The NFL Competition Committee also voted to permanently extend the height of the uprights to 35 feet above the crossbar-- it had gone to 20 feet in 1966 after Don Chandler's controversial kick, then 30 feet in 1979.
Finally, no dunking the football over the goalposts to celebrate-- I guess they were afraid of injuries, or someone just got sick and tired of seeing people dunking the football over the goalposts to celebrate....

#2 Reaser
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Posted 09 April 2014 - 01:27 PM
Mark L. Ford, on 09 Apr 2014 - 12:32 PM, said:
Finally, no dunking the football over the goalposts to celebrate-- I guess they were afraid of injuries, or someone just got sick and tired of seeing people dunking the football over the goalposts to celebrate....

It's because Jimmy Graham pulled down the crossbar and caused a delay in the game.

#3 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 09 April 2014 - 03:11 PM
Wow-- I had missed that (looks like Saints at Atlanta this past November). I'm surprised that it would be that easy to move the crossbar-- I guess Graham was too, since he hung on the post with both hands on his way down-- he played basketball at the U. of Miami, and I'm sure he knew what 260+ pounds would have done if he'd tried that on a basketball rim. From what I've seen, it takes awhile for a crowd of mere mortals to tear goalposts down.... along that line, I had read an interesting article about how a manufacturer of the aluminum goalposts found a way to keep the crowd from tearing them down after the 1974 Rose Bowl-- he added a coat of STP motor oil-- I'd love to see a clip of the people that got the surprise when they tried to celebrate....

#4 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 09 April 2014 - 03:14 PM
Mark L. Ford
"...35 feet..."

At what height will guy wires be necessary to insure the absolute verticality of the uprights?

"...someone just got sick and tired of seeing people dunking the football..."

Funny, isn't it; that some of these same someones don't get sick and tired of the war dances and other displays of nonsense that take place on both sides of the ball long before a touchdown is scored.

So, let's say the penalty is 15 yards (Anything less would be meaningless.) and the game is a blow-out. Who really cares about an insignificant penalty - especially after the team in control has just scored again.

It seems many times rules are made or changed for no other reason except to give the false impression that some staff people actually perform tasks other than collect press clippings. Many of them would attend the opening of an envelope if they thought it would get their name(s) in the paper.

#5 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 09 April 2014 - 10:19 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 09 Apr 2014 - 3:14 PM, said:
"...35 feet..."
At what height will guy wires be necessary to insure the absolute verticality of the uprights?

Actually, logistics was one of the factors in making it 35 feet rather than 40-- consulting engineers had doubts about the weight of the two uprights of that height on the structure, and the stability of poles of that height, particularly in the wind. Interestingly, the height of a standard wooden telephone or light pole is 34 feet from the ground up-- so the uprights would be like a couple of telephone poles sitting on a crossbar, rather than secured by some of the pole being buried in the ground. Of course, the uprights aren't as big around and they are made of aluminum and I suppose are hollow. I've no idea how much an upright would weigh-- this has "math problem" written all over it....

#6 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 10 April 2014 - 12:05 AM
Yes; but the 42-inch ribbon is attached at 40-feet - a height already 6-feet in excess of the 34-foot telephone pole.
I daresay these same telephone poles are embedded at least 6-feet into the earth - maybe more?
The football uprights extend from a horizontal piece 10-feet above the earth and with no such support beneath the surface.
Indeed, this is a matter for the Masters at M.I.T.
Maybe a return to the standard "H" style is in the offing and the tuning fork will go the way of the water bucket and ladle?

#7 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:09 AM
I'm just saying that starting this season, you're going to have the equivalent a couple of telephone poles sitting on the crossbar. That 42 inch ribbon will now be 45 feet above the ground. Make the uprights too much higher, and the kicker won't even need a ribbon to see which way the wind is blowing, since he'll be able to see which way the uprights are leaning-- if they're about to fall toward the end zone stands, the wind is at his back.

You are correct, Cape, that telephone poles are embedded six feet into the ground (and 34 feet above it, total 40 feet). Hey, here's an innovative idea-- instead of the current, old-fashioned (47 years) "slingshot" structure with only one pole in the ground, maybe there should be two poles in the ground for added safety, with the crossbar between them, sort of like an "H" shape.... along that line, instead of the hard shell that has turned helmets into a weapon, perhaps they should be made of a softer substance like, say, leather... and the ball should be a bit rounder in order to emphasize the running game. In the third decade of this century, (2020 to 2029, which we'll call "The Twenties") the NFL could go beyond anything ever previously seen. It could be a roaring decade...

#8 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:57 AM
... and would the Dallas Cowboys' Flappers become the new symbol for everything that is good about the sidelines - or, would it all just "crash" as the decade draws to a close?

#9 GreenRider668907
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Posted 10 April 2014 - 02:40 PM
Some oddball facts about the "Y-Shaped" (or tuning fork) goal posts which became all the rage in 1967:

The new goal post design was created by Joel Rottman and Jim Trimble (former head coach of the Phila. Eagles and the CFL's Hamilton Tiger Cats & Montreal Alouettes). In 1967 Trimble went to New York to pitch his new product to Allie Sherman of the NY Giants. Not only did the Giants & the NFL convert to the new style of goal post in '67, but Sherman hired Trimble for an assisant coaching position. Trimble remained with the Giants organization for over 20 years and his patented goal posts are in place at just about every football field in the U.S. & Canada:
http://news.google.c...&pg=1734,836099
In the fall of 1966, the "sling-shot" style goal posts made their debut at the new Automotive Stadium (or Autostade) which became home to the Montreal Beavers of the fledgling Continental League for one season:

The Canadian Football League used the new "gooseneck" goal posts for the first time on Saturday November 19, 1966. The Ottawa Rough Riders had to play the second game of the '66 Eastern Final at the Autostade due to renovations that were taking place at Lansdowne Park. This article confirms the story and mentions that a new set of the gooseneck (or Y-shaped) goal posts were donated for the 1966 Grey Cup because purchasing them wasn't in the budget:
http://news.google.c...goal post&hl=en

1966 Grey Cup goal posts under construction:
The new style goal posts were first used in the U.S. at the Orange Bowl in Oct. 1966 for a nationally televised game between Indiana and the Univ. of Miami. A review of the AFL's 1966 Miami highlight video shows that they were not used for Dolphins home games, however they were in place for the Jan. 1967 Playoff Bowl between Philadelphia and Baltimore:
http://www.mmbolding...phia_Eagles.htm

#10 oldecapecod 11
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Wow!!! Talk about "documentation!" What can remain to be asked?

The NFL will be forever indebted to the northern provinces for its goalpost design and Arnie Weinmeister - both born in Canada.

(There was another Canton inductee born north of the border but his name does not come immediately to mind.)

#11 Teo
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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:38 PM
oldecapecod 11, on 10 Apr 2014 - 3:16 PM, said:
Wow!!! Talk about "documentation!" What can remain to be asked?
The NFL will be forever indebted to the northern provinces for its goalpost design and Arnie Weinmeister - both born in Canada.
(There was another Canton inductee born north of the border but his name does not come immediately to mind.)

Bronko Nagurski

#12 JWL
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Posted 10 April 2014 - 07:42 PM
Automotive Stadium- LSD during the design?

#13 oldecapecod 11
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Posted 10 April 2014 - 09:55 PM
Teo
"Bronko Nagurski"

Thank you. Age and radiation takes a toll...

#14 Mark L. Ford
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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:35 AM
JWL, on 10 Apr 2014 - 7:42 PM, said:
Automotive Stadium- LSD during the design?

Turns out there's actually an interesting story that explains its bizarre shape ---
https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/Autostade

Long story short, it was put up temporarily for Expo '67, the Montreal World's Fair, with 19 sections that could be moved elsewhere if necessary, kind of like everything at the 1964 New York World's Fair, of which I think only that iron globe thing remains... the name had nothing to do with auto racing, but instead for the auto companies that financed it for their exhibits.

Thanks, Green Rider, for answering questions I've wondered about for decades-- I knew that the goalposts were a Canadian invention, but nothing at all about when they were first used in Canada or in the United States. I always figured that some NFL team tried them out before the league mandated it for all of its teams.

#15 luckyshow
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Posted 11 April 2014 - 10:52 AM
Also around from 1964 World's Fair in Flushing, are those two discs on sticks. Unused for decades now, there is always debate on whether to remove them or not. Featured in many a Sci Fi film. What I call discs on sticks are next to the Unisphere, which is what they call that globe. Also surviving is what I believe was the AT&T exhibit building which is now the Science Museum, though I think it has a better name than that. It has undulating walls on the outside.And it may officially be in Corona, not sure. If you ever see old rockets off of Grand Central Parkway (on southern side), those are old Atlas rockets, boosters, et al, on exhibit attached outside to that Science Museum. Also the Long Island Railroad station there is from the World's Fair. By the way, this area is referred to today, at least that near where the Mets play (and Jets once played), as Willet's Point. Actually this is because it has Willet's Point Avenue or Boulevard passing by there. The true Willet's Point is up where Fort Totten is/was, near the Throgg's Neck Bridge. There was a service academy there in the 19th Century, a Corp of Engineers School, with a football program, a mid-level one. Anyway, that is the true Willet's Point. [see, I mentioned football http://www.luckyshow.org/football/WilletsPoint.htm ]

There is one, maybe two buildings remaining from the 1939 Worlds Fair, one being a museum with a scale model of the city inside. And the circular building at the marina, I think.

#16 GreenRider668907
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Posted 11 April 2014 - 11:30 AM
Mark L. Ford, on 11 Apr 2014 - 10:35 AM, said:
Thanks, Green Rider, for answering questions I've wondered about for decades-- I knew that the goalposts were a Canadian invention, but nothing at all about when they were first used in Canada or in the United States. I always figured that some NFL team tried them out before the league mandated it for all of its teams.

Thanks Mark, I had alot of fun looking up the goal post facts about a year ago while searching for information on Jim Trimble. I was suprised to learn that it was the Continental Football League that first gave exposure to the new style goal posts. I have not been able to find an exact date when they were first put into use, but at least we know where they originated. What I didn't know (until yesterday) was that they were used for the January 1967 Playoff Bowl. I suspect they were also used for the January 1967 Orange Bowl game, but I haven't looked into that part of the evolution.

Speaking of Jim Trimble, I believe he is only one of four coaches to have won both NFL & CFL Coach of the Year honors (1952 & 1961). Steve Owen, Bud Grant and Marv Levy are the other three that I came up with.

[Mark L. Ford]

The epilogue is that eight extra point attempts were missed during the period that the rule was tested (and the powers that be decided to set the line of scrimmage for conversions at the 15 yard line, rather than the 20). It was applied during the Hall of Fame Game, then during the first and third weeks of the preseason.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... son-action

[Reaser]

The epilogue is that eight extra point attempts were missed during the period that the rule was tested (and the powers that be decided to set the line of scrimmage for conversions at the 15 yard line, rather than the 20). It was applied during the Hall of Fame Game, then during the first and third weeks of the preseason.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300000 ... son-action

It was for the first two weeks of the preseason (or weeks 2 and 3 if you count the HOF Game as "week 1") ...

I couldn't stand the articles like the link above that came out after the 'experiment'. Use stats to tell A story instead of actually telling the story, which is of course that majority of the misses were by camp legs, rookie FA's and if I'm remembering correctly 2-3 of the eight were missed by punters (or K/P who are more P than K) who were kicking in preseason.

I said this at the time, it seemed - if the NFL does want to change it - that the NFL purposely chose those preseason weeks knowing that kickers who'll never actually kick in the regular season would be attempting the PAT's and missing them, giving them the percentage they want to say "look at these numbers, the change made a difference!" ... when no, it didn't make any real difference other than causing a literal five minute delay on a post-TD penalty because the officials didn't know where to spot the ball because the yardline was different for the 1 and 2 point conversions and they couldn't figure it out. That was fun, nothing better than long delays in the preseason due to gimmicks like attempting PAT's from further back . . .

Using stats like that reminds me of the NFL (specifically Rich McKay of the comp. committee) when they wanted to change the OT rules (another change that didn't need to happen) ... Said 60% of the time the team that won the coin-toss won in OT but said it in a way to make the public think that it meant that 60% of the time the team that won the toss ran 3 plays and kicked a FG to win the game. Leaving out that the number they were using included TD's, second possession wins, third possession wins, wins by defensive score, etc ...

[rhickok1109]

It seems to me that increasing the distance is the equivalent of throwing dice. Why not just have a captain of the scoring team throw three dice and, if three 1s come up, the extra point is no good?

Much better to do away with it than to have a game decided by what amounts to a random outcome.

[oldecapecod11]

Ralph, that's ridiculous. Think of the problems that will cause with the youth of America.
It is bad enough they can't sign their names.
Now you want to show them that super Sunday can be decided by a crap shoot.
Every kid in America will be carrying dice in his or her pockets.
What will the Sisters of the Bloody Confrontation say about that?
When the mite box money is missing, all pockets will be emptied.
There among the i-phones, e-phones, debit cards, credit cards, condoms, bubble gum, Mary Janes, and Susie Roundheels' telephone number will be DICE.
And some kid will challenge Sister and scream: "DICE RULES!"
All the i-pads and e-pads and maxi-pads will automatically switch to a video of Andrew Dice Clay reciting nursery rhymes.
Our children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren deserve better.
Why not a dice throw video?
The referee can hold the special device and hand it to the scoring captain. Only the button presser will know for sure.
(Plus, M.I.T. sez all three with one pip occurs once every thirty-six throws.)

[Mark L. Ford]

It seems to me that increasing the distance is the equivalent of throwing dice. Why not just have a captain of the scoring team throw three dice and, if three 1s come up, the extra point is no good?

Much better to do away with it than to have a game decided by what amounts to a random outcome.

Hmmm... I calculate that that would mean a 1 out of 216 chance that the extra point would miss, and a 215 out of 216 success rate. I recall that Goodell said that in 2013, there were 5 misses out of 1,200 attempts, so that would be consistent. To really make it a show, of course, the dice should be one-foot high cardboard cubes, tossed by celebrities. The Budweiser logo would be on five of the six sides of each cube...