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Indians

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Indians
Started by JWL, Mar 16 2014 04:24 PM

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#1 JWL
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 04:24 PM

There are two Oorang Indians who I cannot find in the ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia register. These players are Stilwell Sanooke and Asa Walker from the 1922 team. Can these players be found in that encyclopedia under a different name?

I also am not sure of what are nicknames as opposed to legal names. On page 426 you can find Joe Little Twig and "aka Joseph Johnson" after his use name. Meanwhile, Nick Lassa is in the Ls and it reads "aka Nicolas Lassaw aka Nick Long Time Sleep" next to his use name. Was "Nick Long Time Sleep" a legal name or nickname?

Wrinkle Meat, Red Fox, War Horse, Red Fang, Running Deer, Laughing Gas, and Eagle Feather look more like nicknames, but I am not sure that they are nicknames. Then we have Coowee Scoorice "Peter" Blackbear aka "Bear Behind."

#2 Reaser
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 05:25 PM

JWL, on 16 Mar 2014 - 4:24 PM, said:
Stilwell Sanooke

Stillwell Saunooke

#3 Tod Maher
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 05:38 PM

JWL, on 16 Mar 2014 - 4:24 PM, said:
There are two Oorang Indians who I cannot find in the ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia register. These players are Stilwell Sanooke and Asa Walker from the 1922 team. Can these players be found in that encyclopedia under a different name?
I also am not sure of what are nicknames as opposed to legal names. On page 426 you can find Joe Little Twig and "aka Joseph Johnson" after his use name. Meanwhile, Nick Lassa is in the Ls and it reads "aka Nicolas Lassaw aka Nick Long Time Sleep" next to his use name. Was "Nick Long Time Sleep" a legal name or nickname?
Wrinkle Meat, Red Fox, War Horse, Red Fang, Running Deer, Laughing Gas, and Eagle Feather look more like nicknames, but I am not sure that they are nicknames. Then we have Coowee Scoorice "Peter" Blackbear aka "Bear Behind."

The truth is no one really knows who some of these players such as Big Bear were. I think a lot of guesses were made by the good folks who had put together Total Football - and those guesses have unfortunately been etched in stone because it was the "Official Encyclopedia of the NFL."
Then there are mysterious men such as E. Bobadash, E. Broker and H. Broker (an H. Broker did play for Carlisle in 1911) who are mention during the 1922 season and even appear in lineups - but who knows which name matches with what Indian/Native Anerican name.
E. Broker appears a sub in the Nov. 30 games at tackle, for instance. H. Broker as backup quarterback in the same game.
Bobadash subbed at end Oct. 8 vs Columbus and started at end in the next game - a non-league affair vs the Ohio Cranes.
And then there is Jim Thorpe's "brother" Jack [Deadeye] - even though there is no evidence Jim had a brother by that name (Jack, John or otherwise).

#4 Jeffrey Miller
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:04 PM

Contact Tom Benjey, authority on all things Carlisle Indian-related.

#5 JWL
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:07 PM

Reaser, on 16 Mar 2014 - 5:25 PM, said:
Stillwell Saunooke

Thanks.

#6 JWL
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 06:47 PM

Jeffrey Miller, on 16 Mar 2014 - 6:04 PM, said:
Contact Tom Benjey, authority on all things Carlisle Indian-related.

I may do that at some point.

I once came across a person with a surname of Drowning Bear. It was a real last name. What I do not understand is how Joseph Johnson also had the name of Joe Little Twig.

#7 Tod Maher
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 09:39 PM

JWL, on 16 Mar 2014 - 6:47 PM, said:
I may do that at some point.
I once came across a person with a surname of Drowning Bear. It was a real last name. What I do not understand is how Joseph Johnson also had the name of Joe Little Twig.

Players had their Indian/Native American names (Little Twig) and then their Americanized/Anglicized names (Joseph Johnson).

#8 luckyshow
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 10:35 PM

The state of South Dakota girls basketball interscholastic record for points in one game is held by SuAnne Big Crow
playing for Pine Ridge, in 1989.
Native Americans still have such names.

#9 JWL
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Posted 16 March 2014 - 11:49 PM

luckyshow, on 16 Mar 2014 - 10:35 PM, said:
The state of South Dakota girls basketball interscholastic record for points in one game is held by SuAnne Big Crow
playing for Pine Ridge, in 1989.
Native Americans still have such names.

Yeah, I noted in my previous post that they have such names. This can also be seen in the latest issue of National Geographic. I'm not sure why they ever had to have "Americanized" names. I know I once learned this in school, but the reason has been forgotten. What has stumped me the most is the difference, if there is one, between apparent real names like Joe Little Twig vs what appear to be nicknames like Wrinkle Meat and Bear Behind.

#10 rhickok1109
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:54 AM

JWL, on 16 Mar 2014 - 4:24 PM, said:
There are two Oorang Indians who I cannot find in the ESPN Pro Football Encyclopedia register. These players are Stilwell Sanooke and Asa Walker from the 1922 team. Can these players be found in that encyclopedia under a different name?
I also am not sure of what are nicknames as opposed to legal names. On page 426 you can find Joe Little Twig and "aka Joseph Johnson" after his use name. Meanwhile, Nick Lassa is in the Ls and it reads "aka Nicolas Lassaw aka Nick Long Time Sleep" next to his use name. Was "Nick Long Time Sleep" a legal name or nickname?
Wrinkle Meat, Red Fox, War Horse, Red Fang, Running Deer, Laughing Gas, and Eagle Feather look more like nicknames, but I am not sure that they are nicknames. Then we have Coowee Scoorice "Peter" Blackbear aka "Bear Behind."

Beginning about 1900, it was common for Native Americans to have two names, their tribal names and their "English names" (they were called "English" even though, in Wisconsin, most of the adopted names were of French origin). The English name was usually the legal name, used for signing documents and such, but the tribal name was used for ceremonial purposes. To complicate matters, a tribal name such as "Long Time Sleep" would have been a translation from the Native American language.

#11 rhickok1109
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:00 AM

JWL, on 16 Mar 2014 - 11:49 PM, said:
Yeah, I noted in my previous post that they have such names. This can also be seen in the latest issue of National Geographic. I'm not sure why they ever had to have "Americanized" names. I know I once learned this in school, but the reason has been forgotten. What has stumped me the most is the difference, if there is one, between apparent real names like Joe Little Twig vs what appear to be nicknames like Wrinkle Meat and Bear Behind.

In many areas, certainly in Wisconsin, legal authorities refused to accept tribal names. A birth was recorded on tribal rolls with the child's tribal name, but an "English name," as Native Americans call them, had to be recorded on the birth certificate issued by civil authorities; similarly with marriage certificates, death certificates, and other legal documents. I knew many Menominees (because my grandfather for some years managed the tribe's sawmill on the Menominee Reservation to the north of Green Bay) and I went to high school with quite a few Oneida Indians. They all had two names, "English" (or legal) and tribal.

#12 oldestlivingprofootball
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 10:28 AM

A lot of these players have been identified. Bobadosh is really Alex Bobidosh, Fred Broker d; 1971, & Samuel Big Bear d; 1959 are just a few examples. You can find all of this and more on the web site - OldestLivingProFootball.com. Use the search function, type in "Oorang". If this site would let me link to the particular pages, I would do it...

It has a tremendous amount of information I am sure you would be interested in reading.

Jim
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#13 Shipley
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 02:19 PM

There is a book about the Carlisle Indians called "Fabulous Redmen" written by a Dickinson College professor named John Steckbeck that came out in 1951. It has a complete compendium of scores and rosters, plus has interesting anecdotes and a fair number of pictures. Recommend it to anyone who's interested in those teams. It looks like there are copies available on Amazon.

#14 Moran
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 04:23 PM

What other information were you looking for regarding Asa Walker? The Robert Whitman book "Jim Thorpe and the Oorang Indians" has his photo and says his Indian name was White Cloud, his tribe Iroquois and his college Carlisle. In Steckbeck's book it indicates Walker earned his letter in football at Carlisle in 1916.

#15 JWL
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:00 PM

Moran, on 17 Mar 2014 - 4:23 PM, said:
What other information were you looking for regarding Asa Walker? The Robert Whitman book "Jim Thorpe and the Oorang Indians" has his photo and says his Indian name was White Cloud, his tribe Iroquois and his college Carlisle. In Steckbeck's book it indicates Walker earned his letter in football at Carlisle in 1916.

I had only wanted to know what other name he had.

I may order the book that was mentioned a few posts above.

Thanks to all who responded.

#16 Jeffrey Miller
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 08:58 PM

I highly recommend the Whitman book. As I am working on my biography of Pop Warner, I have found plenty of good background info on Carlisle in this book. I found the Steckbeck book to be somewhat unreliable factually ....

#17 Moran
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Posted 17 March 2014 - 09:45 PM

One nice thing about the Steckbeck book is that it is possible to find copies signed by Jim Thorpe

#18 oldestlivingprofootball
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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:09 AM

Nick Lassaw
Alex Bobidosh
Samuel Big Bear

James Zimmerman
Owner: http://www.oldestlivingprofootball.com

#19 luckyshow
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Posted 18 March 2014 - 07:08 PM

Using an English surname is not a necessity "in the day" Like Sitting Bull who was never anything like Fred Sitting Bull.

Here is another fun name I found in my basketball minutae:
45 pts in game by Russell Strikes With a Gun, Piikani National Eagles 62-53 Stirling Lakers, 3/10/1994 Alberta 1A playoffs
"It was a different game when I played.
When a player made a good play, he didn't jump up and down.
Those kinds of plays were expected."
~ Arnie Weinmeister
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